we want different things

[Nettaly]

Hi everyone, this is my first time in this forum.
I am in a long distance relationship with a beautiful, sensitive and intelligent guy.

I will give a little bit backgrown about us:
I am israeli, he is Italian, it's funny because our cultures are kind of similar, us israelies are mostly compared to arabs, and the italians are mostly compared to spanish, but the truth is that israelies and italians just have somthing in common.

we are together for a year and 8 months.
after we met 2 times in Berlin where he used to live, we stayed in touch for two month on Whatsapp, at this point he learn a bit of English. then I came to visit for two weeks which was a really meaningful time for us, we really fell in love.

after another two months apart, I decided to leave my apartment and to go to him, I am a student at the Open University of Israel and they allow studying outside of Israel through the computer and taking the exams at the embassy, which made it eady for me to continue my school.

we lived together in Berlin for 5 months, my grandma had cancer and my mom let her in the house to take care of her, I understood that I have to go back and help my mom take care of my nonna! so I booked a ticket after the last test, and my love came a week after that.

we had little money since I have not worked in Berlin, and our time in Israel was when the difficulties started.
he couldn't work without documents, and I was busy with my nonna, I was with her at nights and at day I studied, he had a really hard time not working, not speaking Hebrew.

after almost three months in Israel he decided to go back to his parents in Italia, to work, save money and come back. he was without work there for 6 months, and now he is 2 months into the work that he found.

during the time he was at his parents house, he was without money, without a job or anything to do, since his parents live in a villagge in south Italia, where there is really nothing to do.

a week after he left Israel my grandma died, and I started to work and to make good money with little work, I understood that to rent an appartment is not an option for someone who wants to save money (we really don't have enough apartments and what we have is shitty and expamsive) so I decided to find a job where you also live. I started to work at a school with children that was taken from the families, now I work in the nights, watching them sleep and studying, and soon I will get an appartment and start working with them during the day.

the first reason was to find for us a good way to live, a free appartment, a big income, a social envirment..

when he was at his parents he really has deteriorates, he was lost and depressed (sometimes he even blamed me for being the reason of his situation). when he finally found work after 3 months of searching, he went to meet them and saw bee keepres that make honey, he understood that this is what he want to study and do with his life, he was nervous that he is turning 25 and has not studies anything.

the next 3 months he waited for the job to begin (in italia it's seasonal) and everything ha talked about was how he is exited to start working, and how he will come to israel when he finishes for 2 months before going back to italia and learning abput the bees..

this was where I broke.. I worked so hard trying to plan our future, to create a base for shared life.. only to realise he is not even looking to finish the distance.

I want him to be happy, I want to support him no matter what, and I can't undrstand his desicion making process..

just to be more clear - Israel and Italia both are very strong at the honey field, we both have agricultural sociaty and a wide strong market for making honey.

the fact that comparing israel to italia at almost every level - Economic wages in Israel were at the highest 10% wages in the world, when in italia he is working now 14 hours a day without free time, making 60 euro per day.. in italia the prices are as high as in israel (very high at both), while in israel we have an appartment, at a school that has a dining room, that gives you electricity, internet.. whilst in italia it's hard to find an appartment, not to talk about work, not to talk about cost vs. Benefit. at both he can study about the bees and in israel no matter where he will study it will not be over 2-3 hours drive (israel is 800 km) while in italia everthing is far and demends life changing actions for every subject (again - appartment, work).

as you can see, if you have got this far, I see closing the relationship in a very rational way, and at the emotional status I am scrared to continue with the distance since we are close of being more time apart than together.

I can't be at the place where I convince him it's the right thing to do and it's what we agreed on, because I want him to be the one that takes the step of sacrifing, like I did when I came to Berin, when I came to italia to visit him..

I don't want us to play the "who give to who" game, but I feel like it's time for him to show me what I mean to him.. and after blaming me for his shitty situation before he started work, I worry that he will do it again if he will be pressured in coming to israel when he is not completly sure this is what he wants..

thanks for whoever stayed with me this far.. I have been keeping the relationship to myself since no one can understand.. I couldn't even find an israeli forum, and we have forums for everything! I try to show everyone that I am strong and I an fine. but a little support from outside and from people who understand and have experience would be really nice..

thanks again,
Nettaly.

[Harlequin]

He might not be ready to close the distance now, but that doesn't necessarily mean he won't be ready in the future. There are things he's going to need to take care of first, and it might just be easier for him to do that in Italy. If he's going to live in Israel, he'll need to learn how to speak Hebrew at least at a conversational level, so maybe he can start to work on that in Italy. Since he can't speak Hebrew, that would make learning how to be a beekeeper in Israel very stressful for him, and that might cause some resentment. I know it's frustrating, but it might be beneficial to let him do his thing in Italy for now.
In the meantime, I'd talk about what he would like to do as far as closing the distance goes. I have no idea how learning to be a beekeeper works, so I don't know if there's a timeframe or anything like that. Ask him how he'd feel about moving to Israel, and explain why you think it'd be a good idea. Listen to what he has to say, and then hopefully the two of you can come to some sort of agreement. Don't bring up anything about him showing you what you mean to him, because that will cause a fight.

I wish you both the best, and hopefully you can figure something out. Good luck!

[Nettaly]

thank you for your response, I guess no long distance relationship can be simple..

if he starts studying in Italy he will probably stay there to work (he sais it not me), which means living in Israel will permanently be off the table, which means learning Hebrew and getting documents that will allow him to be here as more than a tourist (Israel is pretty strict) and all that will not happen.

I have spent a year learning Italian, without being in Italy, and he has learned Hebrew when he was here for a few months, he knows basic words and he understands quite a lot.. my point is, there is deeper meanings to our actions, it's quite feminine to think that way but I really believe so.

he knows I have no problem living in Italy, as soon as I will finish my school I could probably find a fair job there (maybe not), until then it's a chance to save money and to build a safe place for us, and as long as he is free (not working, not studying, without responsibility) we have a chance to go through life together.. I mean, as I see it, not learning Hebrew is out of the question, my man has to know my language, and I know that if he will decide to stay there, he will actually decide to start his life without me..

yes, if he will come here it will be difficult with the language, but he will have to do it eventually, so why not at the beggining when he is free to take it out of our sistem.. and to get documents and not be visitors at each other's countries.. we know we are to be married and to be a family, we are a family already, and I believe it's more important to organize our life as a couple before we take care of out separate lives..

maybe I am wrong to think that way, maybe it's better to start separatly and then to come together.. but I believe that we should be together if it's possible and it's wrong to create a reality where it will be less possible..

if he comes here he will not have stress to find work because we have where to live, money, food, love.. he will only have to be concentrated on learning hebrew and getting documents with me..

I know this is not a place where I should convince anyone of what I think just to feel that I am right.. I am just happy to find a place where those discussions are legitimate and common..

he has not decided yet, I told him that I think it will be difficult no matter what we decide to do, and that it's better to decide now when it's possible to make things easier and more beautiful, it's better to go through the difficulties together..

when he will decide I will let the loving from a distance community know the developments
I guess this is the place where my blog should exist

thanks a lot!

[erwin1973]

May be I am rude, or ignorant...
But do you actually say that though he has still to make up his mind, you already know you'll never be living together?

May I ask, have you really, but I mean really, talked to him about what you talk with us, and really, but I mean really, tried to view his side of the story? All I read is "I want him to do this" and "I want him to do that" and "if he doesn't, I'm not happy". Or at least, that is the impression I get. I might be wrong, of course...

[Nettaly]

you really just touched the heart of it all..

as you see, I want, I feel, I think, I plan.. I am very active.. and he is the opposite, he is passive, he speakes shortly and does not analize everything like I do.. this contrast makes things more beautiful but also more difficult, since texting and writing is our main ways of communication and he is a person of few words..

and for you question, yes, he knows what I think, we are open with each other, but he is such an introvert that sometimes I just feel crazy that I can write and share and he can answer with "ok amo, I sleep now! buonanotte <3 "..

he is very confused which makes it harder for him to talk, and he is working very long hours and sleeps very little, so I am pretty much having a relationship with myself right now..

[C.C.]

What if you had a serious talk about all this the next time you meet irl? It'd be inconvenient if it's not anytime soon. But if you can do it in a close future, it'd be much much easier. Besides, it's a serious enough thing and it requires long talks and discussions and lots of understanding of each others' positions and points of views.

[Nettaly]

I agree, he will finish this work at the end of september, and if he will come here to live, there are documents that he will need that he should bring from Italy, and if he will not want to come to live he will come without them and leave.

but I think, what if he will come without them then decides to stay? he is already stressed about his age and about time passing, in this situation we will spend more money and time until he starts everything - like learning Hebrew, getting documents, studying beekeeping and working..

I want him to make right desicions, especially since he has made some pretty bad ones in the past..
right now it's really not possible to have long conversations, and when he will finish it will be a matter of time until we meet again, depend on his desicion..

I know it mostly seems like us ladies are trying to make everything complicated, but it's actually an attempt to make things easier..

[erwin1973]

You still assume he's going to live with you, though he's not made up his mind. Why don't you give him some space to figure out what he wants, before forcing your idea(s) to him?
He alone can make his decisions. If you do that for him, your relationship is going to suffer and most likely die.
Just give him space, you're crawling all over him, in my humble opinion.

[differentcountries]

I think it is a good idea that he does not plan to move to you if he does not speak the language, and you also dont have a flat and a job that could support him.

The problem is that when you focus too hard on staying/living together internationally, you create these types of problems. Yes, you have a "vacation" from these issues when you were able to do your studies online, but usually that is a short term solution to a long term problem, and will only make it harder to find a job, get an appartment, set aside money etc that is neccesary to close the distance internationally.

It think it is wonderful that that he is in studies for something he wants to do, that is practical and that he can do in either country. It will allow him to make money (important for everyone, but especially for a man) that will allow him to have a sense of importance and meaning, and that will be useful no matter where he will live.

If the both of you learn each other's language you will have an easier time. You are both young and decitions does not have to be forever. Be aware of making hasty decitions that can make things escalate. If the both of you get jobs and flats, it will be easier to decide by all accounts. If he can come to visit, it sounds like a good idea to have a talk about how you may procede.

I noticed you said this: "I believe it's more important to organize our life as a couple before we take care of out separate lives." yes, and no. You may never be able to have a future as a couple unless you take care of your seperate lives too. Because you tried to just live together you got into a lot of financial trouble. However we could wish it was not the case, money is important.

ps: My man also works long hours and it is full season now so days are long and tiresome. I would not say I have a relationship by "myself", but season is what it is. It is not the time for intellectual conversation or long term planning. As for us, we are both introvers, but I am the planner among us and I have many times had to stop planning so much and just let things be as they are for a while. We most likely have to get married before we can close the distance permanently and that requres a lot, so for now we just do our best with what we can do.

[Nettaly]

it's pretty sad what you're saying, simply because I don't see anything wrong with loving and caring, and everyone does that in their own way, we are loved by our loved ones for who we are and the way we are.

no one is perfect and we always have to try and be better, with that being said, I don't believe in doing less, I believe in doing things differently. when it comes to giving space I am the preacher, I myself need a lot of space.

I assume he will come to live with me because I believe it and I want to continue to believe it, this is what I want and I stand behind it. this doesn't mean that I will not accept it if he decides to start his life in Italia, I am his partner and it's my job to support him no matter what, but that does not mean I should cancel myself. a desicion like that is not simple and has to be well thought of.

not only that I try my best to let him make up his own mind, I WANT him to make his desicions by his own, but it's important that he will know what I think. there is no point in repeating my perspactive over and over which will make him angry or nervous, but when the time comes my opinion should be valid.

we are a couple and our individual decisions effect on one another, so neither of us has the liberty to make his desicions without worring about the effect they have on our partner.

and at the bottom line, when it comes to space - the space between us right now is so wide and deep, we talk less than 5 minutes a day if not at all, and I do not bring closing the distant up every chance, because it's important for me to use this time to connect with him as much as possible..

so yeah, I want him TO BE WITH ME, I will NOT stop thinking about our future together, it's important to give space but also to be heard, and he has planty of space, which is part of the reason that I am writing here, because I don't really have MY partnet to talk to at this time..

I know a lot of people here have their own stories of the long distant relationship, and in my case we are inseparable when we are together, which is why I assume that we will live together again soon enough.

I love him and I am not embarrased to say so and show it, he will never not get enough love from me, my thoughts, my heart, my willings and my plannings, as an individual, will always take him into consideration and I expect the same from him.

I know every relationship have it's own stages, in our case we were talking about getting married two month after we met, everyone said it's not real, and here we are a long time after that and we still know this is us for life..

he wants to fulfill himself and I will never stop him from doing that, but part of fulfilling ourselves as individuals is fulfilling ourselves as a couple. he is my brother, my sister, my papa, my mamma, my baby and my bestfriend the man of my dreams! hahaha

[differentcountries]

There is nothing wrong with loving and caring. But immigration officies dont care how much you love, and how much you care. They look upon the hard facts, if they will allow you to live together. I know for sure that even if SO and I should marry, after that, for him to come and live with me, I have to prove that I have:
- a flat of my own that can accomodate him (right now I live with my brother, but there is room enough)
- a full time, steady job that is not freelance and there is a minimum wage to what I need to earn
- prefferably I should have savings, because when he comes he will not be allowed to work for along while (plus noone can hire him anyway before he speaks at least basic level of my language)

We talked about marriage two weeks after we met. But talking about a vague future is not enough. Everyone must be able to do the things they need to do, and those things can be hard. Studying in a foreign language is not very easy, and I think you are too optimistic in thinking it would be a good idea for him to study beekeeping in your country, in Hebrew (and you say his English also is not that good).

I can not ask my SO to move to me before I have my shit together (I currently dont have a full time job), and I think neighter can you. Instead of thinking that is sad that you cant close the distance tomorrow, you may think of it as a different kind of project, a puzzle where you have to find the right pieces before you can add on the rest of the pieces. Dont get mad at your man, because he is doing useful things. Talk to him about your dreams, but also maybe talk to an immigration lawyer to be sure that you understand the visa requirements. Have faith in your man. Good luck.

[erwin1973]

Well, if that is your opinion, then I guess we agree to disagree. I myself cannot confirm me into your way of thinking and committing. To me it sounds you're desperate, controlling and obsessed. Of course I can be wrong, but to me you sound like that. Mind that I have been in a pretty bad marriage before with a woman who was controlling, desperate and obsessed. She made all the desicions for me, and she knew everything, too. Even if there was nothing to know. Any way, I hope for you it's going to work out. I just cannot for myself agree with your way of thinking. Having said that, I don't say it's wrong, it's just not my way of thinking. No offence meant.

[Nettaly]

I think it is a good idea that he does not plan to move to you if he does not speak the language, and you also dont have a flat and a job that could support him.

The problem is that when you focus too hard on staying/living together internationally, you create these types of problems. Yes, you have a "vacation" from these issues when you were able to do your studies online, but usually that is a short term solution to a long term problem, and will only make it harder to find a job, get an appartment, set aside money etc that is neccesary to close the distance internationally.

It think it is wonderful that that he is in studies for something he wants to do, that is practical and that he can do in either country. It will allow him to make money (important for everyone, but especially for a man) that will allow him to have a sense of importance and meaning, and that will be useful no matter where he will live.

If the both of you learn each other's language you will have an easier time. You are both young and decitions does not have to be forever. Be aware of making hasty decitions that can make things escalate. If the both of you get jobs and flats, it will be easier to decide by all accounts. If he can come to visit, it sounds like a good idea to have a talk about how you may procede.

I noticed you said this: "I believe it's more important to organize our life as a couple before we take care of out separate lives." yes, and no. You may never be able to have a future as a couple unless you take care of your seperate lives too. Because you tried to just live together you got into a lot of financial trouble. However we could wish it was not the case, money is important.

ps: My man also works long hours and it is full season now so days are long and tiresome. I would not say I have a relationship by "myself", but season is what it is. It is not the time for intellectual conversation or long term planning. As for us, we are both introvers, but I am the planner among us and I have many times had to stop planning so much and just let things be as they are for a while. We most likely have to get married before we can close the distance permanently and that requres a lot, so for now we just do our best with what we can do.

thanks for your opinion, you got it wrong about the appartment and the money - I do have those things.
about the languages, as I said - I speak Italian very well, and he - reads and writes hebrew, understand almost half of what he hears, and know how to say full sentenses.

about taking care of ourselves as a couple - one of the most important thing for a human is to fulfill himself, and I want him to do so, I will not stop him from it but in my opinion we should stay together if it's possible, and make it possible to achive our gaols.

and in general, as I said, getting documents that will allow us to be free as a couple are very important and very difficult to get, and as long as we are not sharing a life it will get harder to have something to show, and to have rights. so this is something that should be taken care of as soon as possible.

I am a planner but the plan is only general lines for the future to keep from getting lost. we have a window of two years to get all of this done - his Hebrew learning, getting documents, his studying, my studying, saving money - with all the right conditions - a free appartment, free food, goverment and family support, a big income, and a lot of loving support.

that window is important especially because we are young, when we will want to start a family we should be ready - speaking each others languages, having a legitimate relationship, having savings of money, having finished our studying.. being young means it's easier to learn languages, it's easier to adjust to changes, the more you grow older the less easy it is for you to make this life changing desicions.. there is a meaning to "we are young, we are free"

I accept the timing of things, and letting the situation just be, but I also believe I can create a reality with my bare hands, and I will create the best reality that exist, one which we are both happy with what we have, proud of who we are, and love ourselves. and I will have to adjust to his desicions too, as soon as he will have some

[Nettaly]

Well, if that is your opinion, then I guess we agree to disagree. I myself cannot confirm me into your way of thinking and committing. To me it sounds you're desperate, controlling and obsessed. Of course I can be wrong, but to me you sound like that. Mind that I have been in a pretty bad marriage before with a woman who was controlling, desperate and obsessed. She made all the desicions for me, and she knew everything, too. Even if there was nothing to know. Any way, I hope for you it's going to work out. I just cannot for myself agree with your way of thinking. Having said that, I don't say it's wrong, it's just not my way of thinking. No offence meant.

I believe it takes two to have a bad relationship..

[Nettaly]

There is nothing wrong with loving and caring. But immigration officies dont care how much you love, and how much you care. They look upon the hard facts, if they will allow you to live together. I know for sure that even if SO and I should marry, after that, for him to come and live with me, I have to prove that I have:
- a flat of my own that can accomodate him (right now I live with my brother, but there is room enough)
- a full time, steady job that is not freelance and there is a minimum wage to what I need to earn
- prefferably I should have savings, because when he comes he will not be allowed to work for along while (plus noone can hire him anyway before he speaks at least basic level of my language)

We talked about marriage two weeks after we met. But talking about a vague future is not enough. Everyone must be able to do the things they need to do, and those things can be hard. Studying in a foreign language is not very easy, and I think you are too optimistic in thinking it would be a good idea for him to study beekeeping in your country, in Hebrew (and you say his English also is not that good).

I can not ask my SO to move to me before I have my shit together (I currently dont have a full time job), and I think neighter can you. Instead of thinking that is sad that you cant close the distance tomorrow, you may think of it as a different kind of project, a puzzle where you have to find the right pieces before you can add on the rest of the pieces. Dont get mad at your man, because he is doing useful things. Talk to him about your dreams, but also maybe talk to an immigration lawyer to be sure that you understand the visa requirements. Have faith in your man. Good luck.

I have those things the way my country demends, and I have spoken to a layer. Israel is a country of immigrants (mostly Jewish) but we are still a country of many languages, the main ones are Hebrew, Arabic and English. we have schools that teach in Spanish, French, Russion, English ext, and we have something called Ulpan where they teach the arrivers Hebrew for free with methods that work very easy and very fast..

I wish you a lot of luck