I wasn't going to post this but I might as well...

[Andy]

I'll warn you now, it's a long one, but it's very important to me. It's probably the biggest decision I'll have to make and no-one's been able to help so far.

I wasn't going to bore you with this but it all came out when I was talking to Tanja in bed last night. Sometimes I feel really down about things. Moving to Finland. Leaving everything behind. And more than anything, this. She suggested posting it on here seeing as no-one else had been able to come up with any answers but I didn't fancy doing that. I don't know why I changed my mind really. I suppose it's just a case of why not?

Ok here's my problem. It's been my problem since Tanja came into my life really but it's snowballed (naturally) over the past 12-18 months as my studies have come to a close.

I've spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours thinking about it over and over again trying to think of an answer that I'd be happy with, but I'm sure there isn't one. I've talked to family and friends about it, as well as Tanja of course but no-one's managed to come up with any new ideas.

I've got a First Class honours degree. I'm very ambitious, and I want a career, probably in logistics. Ok so there's some basic facts. That'll do for now. I'm (hopefully) looking at moving to Finland next summer. I can't get a job in Finland without the language. I can't learn the language without a job for money. There's the problem.

Tanja lives in the middle of nowhere really, she's not in a big city where there's plenty of opportunities, yet she can't move. Ideally I'd live near/in Helsinki but that's out of the question unfortunately.

I want a career more than anything, I spent 4 years on my degree, not to mention my whole life before that studying so I could have the chance of getting it, so I've absolutely promised myself that I won't let it go to waste. If my only option of moving involved getting a job with zero career prospects then I won't do it, I've worked too hard to come this far to just let it all go to waste.

I fear that if I move here, spend 1-2 years learning the language, (and doing God-only-knows-what in the meantime) by which time I'll be 25, then companies will overlook me in favour of students who are fresh out of Uni, that's what they want. I am genuinely worried about my career prospects if I do that.

So the alternative is to get a job back home. I'd get experience and a foot in the door somewhere. Then if I do this for 1-2 years I'll have a decent amount of money behind me (I still live at home, so no need to worry about rent/bills etc although I'd of course be giving my parents some money each week. Anyway...)

My problem with this is by then I'll have started my career, I'll have a decent amount of money coming in, and my Dad's said that I wouldn't want to simply give that up in that situation. If I got lucky and landed a really well-paid job (one of my Dad's friends is head of logistics for a huge retailer in the UK and he's got a lot of contacts to help me get in somewhere) then I'd be mad to throw that sort of thing away.

Obviously then I'm not with Tanja. Not only that but I'd see her MUCH less often than I do now, something which I don't think she, or I for that matter, could handle. She's said she'll support me if I decided to do this, but honestly I don't think we'd manage, especially having felt like we're getting closer to ending the distance and looking at doing so next summer.

Not only am I not with Tanja but I'm not learning Finnish. There's a possibility of learning Finnish from a Finn who lives in my town but I've never met her - plus not anyone can just teach, especially languages, and especially such a difficult one as Finnish. So if I'm not learning Finnish then I'd have to quit my job, put my career on hold until I do, and then pick up from there. By this point there's 3-5 years gone by, minimum I'd say. And at that point I have to start again, but this time in Finland.

So there's my dilemma. If you've bothered to read all this then I'm truly grateful. I've felt trapped being in this situation for so long and I've lost a hell of a lot of sleep over it because I'm so determined to have both Tanja as well as a career that I've worked so hard to have the chance of getting. Yet the more think about it and the more that time goes on, the more it feels like I have to give one of them up, and the idea of that is quite heart-breaking. Try choosing between what you've been working towards your whole life, or the love of your life...

I know all this sounds very dramatic, a big choice, one or the other blah blah blah, and I think Tanja believes I over-dramatize it in this way, and I probably do. Also I know I'd have a chance of a decent career in Finland given time (a lot of time, admittedly) but I feel it wouldn't be anywhere near as good as it could be back home, that goes without saying suppose because of the language thing, but bear in mind Tanja's location too. It's less than ideal to say the least when it comes to this sort of thing.

One more thing, I am very ambitious. I've always been a bit of a perfectionist, and I've got a nothing but the best is good enough mentality. I like winning, and being successful (who doesn't?) but with me if I can have it, then I must have it. I was always a model student at school, never ever in trouble, always in the top set, getting the top grades, teachers loved me so I could get away with handing work in late, or whenever I wanted with some of them. I know I'm intelligent and I think I'm very switched on and on-the-ball, I've always been good at knowing and understanding what's going on around me, like sensing what people feel about things before they say. I'm quite aware and sharp and as you've no doubt noticed by now, I've got quite a high opinion of my mental abilities

So I'm sure I'm coming across as at least somewhat of an arrogant prick after that last paragraph, but I wrote if for a reason. I think I could have a great career doing something I at least enjoy to some extent, if not completely. I've got a lot of good qualities that I think employers would look for. I think I've made my point haha. Yeah, so a good career is important to me.

As of course is Tanja. I'd really love to bang on now about how much she means to me and how special she is. I needed someone like her and now I've got her, I have absolutely no intention of letting her go. But if I want to be with her then I have to move to Finland. She 100% can't move to the UK.

So there you have it, I'm done now. I'm sorry it turned out so long. Good on you if you stuck with it, I appreciate it.

Maybe now you can see why I feel like there's no solution to this problem, and being a Maths nerd, my brain is geared towards solving problems and finding solutions - probably why this stresses me out so much

I hope all this is in order and is coherent. It should make sense. Feel free to ask any questions and be as blunt as you like, don't worry about upsetting me of offending me. Tell me if you think I'm being a drama queen and it's not that bad if you want, although it doesn't feel like it in these shoes I have to say.

I just need some different perspectives on all this because I'm banging my head against a brick wall when it comes to new ideas at the moment.

Thanks for reading. Chances are I won't be able to respond to any replies until Thursday morning as I won't get home until late tomorrow night. Cheers.

[sam]

Think I know how you feel
I'm pretty much in the same boat..

Want two things, but can only have one.. and even then, getting that any time soon is hardly garunteed

You/we'll find a way









..eventually >.>

[mllebamako]

The age old question, right? Love or career? Most people say to choose career over love. But I wonder, at what point DO you choose love? There has to be some tipping point where love is the better choice for your future happiness.

That being said, do you really think you would be miserable if you put your career on hold for a few years? Now I know NOTHING about a career in logistics, but I really don't think that 25 is too old to break into the field. Most employers are impressed by someone who has lived abroad and learned a new language. It shows that you can work with diverse groups of people, that you are not afraid of the unknown, and that you are flexible. Plus it never hurts to have another language, although Finnish isn't the MOST useful on an international scale. Don't you think there could be some sort of niche for you in the job market? 25 is not old! People go through career changes at many different points in life and I believe that employers prefer someone with life-after-university experience, even if it's not in the specific field. Again, I know nothing about your field so this may be totally off.

Lastly, why do you want to have the "best" career so badly? Is it about competing and winning? Will it make you truly happy? I used to feel a lot of pressure to have an amazing career...and then I realized that in the end, that doesn't matter.
I just don't understand why you feel such incredible pressure to get an amazing career at such a young age, I guess. I know the workforce is competitive, but it's not like you are totally OUT if you wait a few years to enter. I hope this doesn't offend you but you said to be honest.

[faith5x5nomore]

I think the reason no one has really been able to lend some really good advice on this one is because there is no one really good solution. What it boils down to is what you want more for the time being and will the other choice still be there when your ready. It sounds like Tanja is an awesome girlfriend in the fact that she will support your decision. I have some simular situations to deal with and after alot of consideration I decided that I would give up on my career to be with my SO. This was not a light decision by any means but what made my final decision was this... In 40 years from now am I going to care about the kind of car I drove or the latest toy that I bought with the money I earned. No.... I want to look over and see the one I love and know that in the end being surrounded by the people you care about is the only thing that really matters. Your young and have many years before your sitting on a rocking chair somewhere thinking about the days gone bye... I just know that for myself I want to take whatever road my SO is on and hope that I can someday be able to have my career and him but for now I am following my heart.....

[Karringtyn]

Hi Andy.

A lot of my life I don't share on here because I really think people could care. But for you...I will delve a little into it.

I was a very HIGHLY driven person when I was in HS/early college years....great grades...top in state...knew what I wanted..career wise...No man was going to stop me...and kids??!!! Oh heck no.

I worked hard at school...succeeded....met my ex husband. Bam. I knew that life with him was what I wanted. I could have a career anytime...but we had decided to have children and I would not let them go into any daycare situation...our personal choice. I was raising them. I gave up a chance at a career so that my kids could have me full time days. I worked nights....so when my ex got home...to care for the kids...I was at work...(we lived parallel lives)...

We struggled financially for a few years but never went without. As my ex climbed the corporate ladder I stayed at home...

Eighteen years later I am here. 41. I waitress. I don't have a career but I have a life I love. My kids are my world and I don't regret any time I had with my ex. He and I had some great times . I don't live with regrets..
I chose the path my heart wanted...at the time that was my "love of a lifetime"...little did I know that Daniel would change all that LOL! But seriously...I went after what I needed to do.

You love your woman. SO you do whatever it takes to be with her. Staying in the UK is just prolonging the distance...Andy you are not a quitter...so don't give up so easily...

Are there courses online that you can start taking to learn the language? When you think you are up against a wall....look for a window...you know what you want....go for it.

And just so you know...my career will be starting again soon..25 is a far cry from where I am...and I know with my talent and abilities...I WON'T be looked over...(how's that for snotty confidence?!)!

I wish the best for you my friend.

[amb85]

It's a tough situation...but it really comes down to what will make YOU happy. Even if you get the career of your dreams, will it make you happier than if you had Tanja by your side? You are still young and have your whole life ahead of you. I say experience as much as you can of it because you won't be able to do it later. What is a first class honours degree? is that like a Bachelors Degree in the US? If so, have you thought about maybe furthering your education and going for a Master's Degree? (not sure what the equivalent is where you are) Also, have you looked into maybe taking an online language class for Finnish? These days there are tons of classes online teaching languages. I'm sure you could find one for Finnish.

[JoMarie]

It's very rare to see you asking for help, so of course I'll do what I can. I think like others have said you have a choice, and in my opinion you've already made the choice. You love Tanja right? Are you willing to give her up to have a better career, or would you rather keep her and have a lesser career? I know that if I was in your shoes (and in a way I have been) I would chose Kevin over the career, because like I am now, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make it work. I'm working a job I hate, but I'm making enough money for us to get by combined with his pay, so I can stay with him and I'm happy with that. My suggestion would be making a pro's/Con's list about things you would gain if you move, but things you would lose if you move. It helped me see that a lot of my "cons" were silly and selfish.

I think it would be smarter to move, and learn the language so you can be with Tanja. If you have to you can take some refresher courses in your logistics area, but in my experience, potential employers would rather have older people because they are more dependable.

I really hope that helps you, if even only a little. Good luck Andy.

[Moon]

I'm sorry, Andy Your situation is tough, but hey, I work for a Finnish company and I live in the US (hold on, I have a point, really!). I tell you that because you don't know where your career will end up. If you stay in the UK, you can actively seek out companies with Finnish ties for employment, and transfer to the Finnish division after a little time. If you can do that, they'll take you without speaking Finnish, I know because although my company is based in Finland, the Helsinki office's official language is English, and they employ plenty of foreigners. That may be the exception to the rule, but I hope it shows you that it is possible! If you are as ambitious as you say, and your grades are what they are, you should have some choices with your employers.

Now, that's not to say you might not have a killer commute unfortunately, but wouldn't that be better than the commute between the UK and Finland I think you should put off moving for a little while longer and see what career opportunities are out there that'll get you to Finland. Getting there is half the battle! Yeah, you should learn Finnish though, but you need the basics first, which is readily available for free around the internet. Live Mocha will give you beginner lessons, then put you in touch with native Finnish speakers to practice and learn with. As awful as Finnish is for English speakers, and as bad as I am with other languages in general, I've started picking some things up on my own, if it's written down (forget about spoken, ugh!). If I can do that, you definitely can!

Don't give up, you just have to find an alternative method to these things, that maybe goes against the grain of the traditional way. Start searching out Finnish companies and see who has UK branches, and start there. Too bad my company doesn't have a logistics office in the UK, but we're there, too You can always PM me for my companies info though, it's a start! Good luck Andy and Tanja, don't give up, even if it means not closing the distance as soon as you'd like. The distance is much better than not having each other at all, and the struggle will be worth it in the end.

[Inga]

Hey Andy,

From all your posts here, you seem like a very smart guy with a lot going for you. You have two great dreams/goals: your career and your girlfriend. If you really want them both, I am sure you are smart and resourceful enough to make it happen. It probably won't be the ideal situation, where you have everything you want, the way you want it, at the time you want it. You are going to have to find a way to make it happen. I understand that you feel down, but you assume that if you choose for one thing, you will loose the other. I don't believe it has to work that way. You are still very young and you have your whole life ahead of you.

To me it seems that if you would move to Finland, it doesnt at all mean that your carreer is already over. It will probably start a little later, or be a bit different than you imagined. And if you decide to stay in England, it means you will have to miss your girlfriend a little longer. Your choice probably is in which you prioritize right now, not which one you will loose. Try at least to not make the situation that black and white, it will make this whole process at least a bit less heavy.

Good luck with everything...!

Oh, one more thing:

One more thing, I am very ambitious. I've always been a bit of a perfectionist, and I've got a nothing but the best is good enough mentality. I like winning, and being successful (who doesn't?)

.... then why support Everton?

[Karringtyn]

The distance is much better than not having each other at all, and the struggle will be worth it in the end.

Perfectly said.

[NikkiP]

Alright so... Rosetta Stone Finnish apparently does not exist. There goes my first idea...

Anyway... I think that you and I are identical when you describe yourself in the paragraph right before you call yourself an arrogant prick. I am the highest paid 23 year old I know. That was before I just got the raise that I had shared I was struggling with. Which of course, they gave me because they knew I wanted to leave to be with Ryan at some point next year...

Fortunately for me, Ryan pretty non-hesitantly decided that meant that he would come here. It's going to take a bit longer than if I was heading up to Pa but he blessed me with not having to make that decision. Had he not, well, the anxiety of having to make that choice upsets me when it's not even mine to make.

Here's the deal! I understand that it is frustrating because by the time you've learned Finnish, you'll be 2(+) years out of college but here is what you have to remember... You have the degree, and then you will also be able to have the bilingual, hey look at me I learned Finnish card. Why not continue your education on line while you are learning Finnish so that you have even more to bring to the table? I'm not talking full cirriculum, one, two classes a semester only further valuing yourself as a potential employee.

Start learning Finnish now! Get the books, have Tanja speak very basic conversations to you in Finnish, soak up whatever you can online, download Finnish tv shows. If you're as driven as I believe you are, then get as much of it done now so you can shorten the time between your studies coming to an end and you being ready to enter the Finnish job field.

I don't believe for a second that you not moving is an option. And I will tell you, your dad is absolutely right. Leaving that career is not something that you will want to do. So start learning the language now, stay fresh on what's going on in your field, and follow your heart!

I hope this helps. Set your mind on it and you'll get it done.

[Tanja]

I like all you people saying "put off your career and just go be with Tanja" ...

Seriously though, it's hard watching him go through this... Feels like I just sit here and wait for him to make his move. I feel helpless, don't like it

[sam]

Start learning Finnish now! Get the books, have Tanja speak very basic conversations to you in Finnish, soak up whatever you can online, download Finnish tv shows. If you're as driven as I believe you are, then get as much of it done now so you can shorten the time between your studies coming to an end and you being ready to enter the Finnish job field.

I don't believe for a second that you not moving is an option. And I will tell you, your dad is absolutely right. Leaving that career is not something that you will want to do. So start learning the language now, stay fresh on what's going on in your field, and follow your heart!

I hope this helps. Set your mind on it and you'll get it done.

I cant and wont speak for Andy, but I'm in the situation and I'll say this..
Finnish isnt really a language you can learn from books.. you really do need someone to teach you and hear the words and pronounciation. It's a nightmare to learn

It's not even the language that's the main problem in us moving there either I guess.. I wont get into all the.. what we do/dont need to be able to move to Finland, but I'll bet it's harder than moving to most other countries in the world

Pain in the ass, to be honest

[MoonWatcher]

Okay. You're into logistics. I'm going to try and sort through this in a logistical way (I'll probably fail miserably).

I'll start with the language issue. I agree that not just anyone can teach. But perhaps getting the basics down and building from there would be a good start. Are there no online courses you could find, at least getting the initial steps down? Have you tried Youtube? Local classes? Maybe approach this Finnish woman and ask if she'd help you practice and also work with Tanja, or maybe some friends of Tanja's who are willing to help. You could do all of this while still at home. That's the best option I could think of.

Next is the job search. I don't necessarily think that it boils down to Job or Tanja. I think you can have both. I apologize ahead of time if this sounds harsh and I'm not necessarily saying you're any of these things, but this is something I had to deal with when I was confused about what I thought was going to be my life-long career like yours and hopefully it will help you think in some different ways. In order to try and prevent myself from getting too wordy, I'm going to be as blunt as possible (although I'm naturally not one to beat around the bush, which can sometimes get me into trouble ).

You need to think about what you NEED in life. Not what you want or must have. You need to sit down with yourself and ask what you think are the bare minimum essentials for having a good life. Really there are just four: a home, a stable job, good health and a love. You seem to potentially have all these things within your grasp. But you may have to compromise your desire for your dream job. We all want the best/highest paying job; it's natural to desire that security for a comfortable life and provisions for a family. And we want all our hard work with studies to pay off as well. But honestly, would it be so terrible if you didn't have the biggest paycheck? Would you still survive without the largest house? Without the most stuff? What about without Tanja?

Also, the odds of you having the same position at the same company for the remainder of your working life are slim to none. You may move to different positions, different branches, maybe even a different field. Life happens. But you can still find satisfaction in whatever work you do throughout your life. Your talents will still be applicable. Maybe not in the way you always imagined, but still in a positive way. Jobs seem to be very fluid these days, so be prepared for things to not go according to plan (that was my mistake). You could have all the money and success in the world, but if you don't have your love... it's all worthless in my mind.

So kind of my thinking is... go where Tanja is when the time is right. Jobs will come and go. Careers and prestige will fade. But there is only one Tanja, and one life to spend with her. Whenever that may be I really hope this was helpful!

P.S.Karringtyn, excellent personal story. Exactly what direction my thoughts were headed in. Very well put!

[Zephii]

I didn't read the other replies, because I didn't want to be swayed by other people's opinions. So if I repeat stuff, that's my bad.

It really is a big thing. It's huge, and I don't think you're a drama queen at all. I completely get it. You're going to spend 8 or more hours, 5 or more days a week for the next 40 odd years working... you're going to want it to be something you enjoy, are good at, and makes a bit of money. I once read, and have come to believe, that a career is to a man what a relationship is to a woman. So if you feel as strongly towards logistics as I feel towards Obi... shit mate, you are in trouble!

Seriously though, you want a challenge? And you want both your woman and your career? Then do it. Work your arse off, and do it. If you're that smart and ambitious - if you really really want it - there's no reason you wont excel in your language course. It doesn't have to take years if you don't want it to... If you're willing to put in the work. And, once you have a basic grasp of the language you can start networking. You don't need to have the job right away, but getting contacts in the field will help you get it when the time comes.

What I would do is to start familiarizing yourself with the language. No, I'm not saying "start learning now" because Finnish is stupidly hard. I'm saying take the time to listen to their music, watch shows in finish (English subtitles) and ask Tanja to speak to you in Finnish on occasion. So you can learn to discern the words from the accent, and so you can pick up the flow of how they speak. I know, I probably sound insane, but it does tend to help. The reason I'm saying this is because if you're exposed to it enough it becomes more normal, less daunting. Everyone I work with speaks Punjabi except me. I would guess it's far easier to learn than Finnish, especially since they'll randomly use English words when they talk, but hearing it every day for the past 7 odd months has given me a better understanding. I can't speak the language, but I'm beginning to know what it being said around me. I couldn't repeat it word for word or anything, but I understand it well enough now that if someone gives me an instruction in Punjabi I can work out what they want and go do it. So yeah, that's what I'd be doing... trying to make it less of a hurdle when the time comes.

After that, I'd be moving to Finland. I think your dad is right, if you started your career you wouldn't want to up and leave it. But, perhaps once you learn the language you might consider going long distance again for a short while so you can live in the city while you get a year or two experience. I don't know how far the city is from Tanja's place, but I imagine you'd have far more frequent visits in a same-country LDR than an international one. It might be worth thinking about, I don't know.

I too don't think 25 is too old. What could help is getting references from those contacts you mentioned. (When you start applying for jobs you can translate them into Finnish and make a small note saying the original English copies are available upon request or something.) Get as many references as you can and make sure your knowledge will be enough to make up for any perceived inexperience. And if you really have to? Lie. They are not going to know if you worked in England before you came to Finland, and I doubt they'll make any international calls to check up on you, but if you think they will, give the number of someone back home who will lie for you. You don't have to be honest all the time.

To me, I don't think you really have a choice to make at all. You have to move to Finland because you're not leaving Tanja. And you have to get your job in logistics because you're not wasting your degree. That's just how it is, no choice. All you can really do is do your best to get the worst bits over and done with quickly. Yes, for a couple of years it's going to really suck, and you'll have to remind yourself over and over why all the hard work is worth it. If you're half as smart as you think you are you'll be able to do it and the extra challenge will simply make the reward more sweet when you do!

I know, that was probably the opposite of helpful. I hope it works out for you though
Peace, Hugs and Carrots!