When expectations and reality clash...

[Kiyama]

So here are some basic facts:

He lives in the US and works for a military hospital as a civilian. He moved there last September. Before that he lived in Germany for eight years where we got to know each other and just before he left we got together. Great timing
All his life he moved around a lot. His dad used to be in the army and he was in the army himself for a while. Hi time in Germany was the longest he ever spend in one place.
He told me a while ago he's had commitment issues in the past but with me it feels different and he knows he wants t get married.
I do teaching training here in Germany. It's part of my degree and it's a training on the job, which means I get payed for it. I will be done in July 2013.
He is really unhappy with his job. Back then it seemed like a great opportunity and he wasn't happy with his old job anymore but things aren't a he expected them to be and he's constantly stressed out.
We both agreed that July 2013 is our final closing date for the distance.

Here is our issue:

We are both willing to move for the other person. Our long term plan is to live in Germany though. He'd like to move back and my career options here are better than in the US. I can get employed here as a civil servant and get a lot of benefits. Being a teacher in Germany means to be really well off financially. However, I love California and I can imagine to go there for a while. However, both plans aren't easy to realize. I my profession it is basically impossible to move to the US with a work visa. I've looked into it and the chances are less than slim. The only other option is to go over there on a spouse visa, which means we'd have to get married. We talked about that several times and we were both open for this idea.

However, a marriage visa can take up to a year until it is through so if I want to move there next summer, we'd have to get married this summer. Another option is a fiancé visa that takes up to 6 months. Then I could move to the US and get married within three months and then get a work visa after about three months. This would be a big compromise for me as I'd be unable to work for a while whereas with a proper marriage visa I could work from the start. I don't like the idea of being financially dependent on him so that's really important to me.
We have talked about these problems too.

He will also apply for jobs in Germany from summer on. In the last few weeks I actually felt because he is unhappy with his job that he would prefer that.

So I've been under the impression he was aware of all this and I was wondering if we were still kind of thinking about getting married and even if he was intending to propose during my next visit. It is a big step but I felt ready for it and at least it would give us some security for the future in case our other plan fails. But I didn't know for sure and I couldn't live with the uncertainty any longer so I addressed the subject the other night.
We were talking about getting married so I asked when he thought was the right time and his answer was: well sometime after you finish your training.
I was speechless and I felt like somebody had poured a bucket of cold water over my head. After all our conversations about visas all he can give me is such a comment that basically tells me he had never thought about what it actually takes to get me over there, even apparently not listened to what we had talked about.
Then he even stated it would be difficult for him to move to Germany anytime soon because there were cuts and we might have to live in the US for a while. That's the first time he's brought that up too. Before that he always seemed optimistic and now, all of a sudden, it seems unrealistic. But knowing that he didn't seem to think at all about necessary steps for me to be able to move there.

I feel incredibly disappointed with his reaction. In fact, I've never felt so disappointed in my whole relationship with him. I explained to him again the whole visa thing he apparently wasn't aware of and he switched immediately to"we should make plans then". It sounds to me he just says to me whatever he thinks I want to hear but there doesn't seem to be any real intention behind his talking.

I am really worried he still has serious commitment issues. Many people his age already have children so he isn't young anymore,which could be an explanation. He doesn't seem to be able to admit it though and denies it but the way things went down speak in their own language. He also sees a lot of flaws in me. I know I can be moody sometimes but I have worked on it a lot and he still blames me for everyting. One sentence can be enough that was apprently said in the wrong tone and he snaps at me. I almost feel like I'm not allowed to bring anything up anymore because he hates arguing and if I do I need to cut out all emotions. That's what he said when we talked about this marriage thing. I said I couldn't do that as I'm not a machine. The next night he hung up on me for a work call. Things were still tense and he didn't tell me why he didn't call back and I didn't get a message so I called after a while and he immediately snapped and said he needs to take care of something and he didn't want to have "my crap" now. That has happened repeatedly. Apparently he only wants to talk to me when I'm in a good mood and don't want to confront him with something. I know the situation is tense at the moment but I don't feel acknowledged as a person anymore. I am who I am and I think I'm a great girlfriend most of the time so can I not expect to be loved as I am? he was so rude with his comment so I haven't talked to him since. I said I had enough and he could call when he wanted to apologize. So far I haven't heard back.

Sorry for this really long post. I just don't know what to think anymore. I'm really mad at how rude he was and hurt because of him not giving thoughts in our future
Any advice in how to deal with this?

[ChibiFelicia]

I made it through your post! : ) im not so good with long posts. Good that its in paragraphs makes for easier reading. So thanks for that

Theres a couple things i want to address. We were in a similar situation, we hadnt been together long (and i see your relationship began last august - correct me if im wrong) and around 8 months down the line my man and i were discussing how we wanted this relationship to plan out. At that point i needed to look at work visas (as a nurse i am eligible for a work visa but it'd take a loooooooooooooooong time). i had looked at marriage visas and i mentioned that to him, i felt he had the same reaction your SO did. Kinda forgot about it the next time i brought it up. I realised it was just too early in our relationship. He was at the typical marrying age when i met him (in my opinion) but we werent ready for that step. Hence his reaction. Im not sure if thats the same with your SO but add in with commitment issues that might be a reason.

The main thing i wanted to address though is in your last paragraph. From what you said you sound kinda like me. Im emotional, i get moody, i have many flaws as does everyone else. No one is perfect and your man needs to realise that. How he treats you when he considers you're in a "mood" is not on. I believe if you are to love someone you, you have to love them as they are. Flaws and all! You shouldnt be made like to feel you aren't a person.

Have you thought about what you will say to him if and when he calls back? And if he doesnt will you call? From my point of view asking for the marriage commitment should take a back seat for now. You need to work on his behaviour towards you. Has his behaviour always been likes this? Or has it only been since you mentions the visa plans? If the change is since then i'd guess that he really does have commitment issues and the only way he can distance himself from you is being a total ass. So if the relationship ends it aint his fault.

[Kiyama]

Thanks for reading. It is really long I know. I just wanted people to get the whole picture

We haven't been together for that long, that's true. However, we've know each other for two years now. We were friends for quite a while before we started dating. I can still see your point and I not the person who rushes into a marriage. In fact I think I can be completely happy with someone and also have children without getting married. It just seems like this is our only option if we want to be together in America. But of course I'm completely aware of the fact that it might just be too early and I can even sort of understand his reaction. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has experienced this.
Still, what am I left with if we move away from this? It doesn't look well for him coming back here and me going there is off the table too then so our future together is completely at stake

With regard to the other issue your address: It hasn't happened too often during our relationship but recently more than usual, which strikes me and sadly, I think it is something I told him that led to it. I told him that me and my dad have had bad arguments because of me being sarcastic and that my last boyfriend was very passive and that I said things to him that I now regret. I have never done this to him but I think he completely misunderstood and feels like he has to punish me or something when I get emotional.
I saw earlier he tried to call last night when I was still out but he's still asleep now and we were supposed to have date night later so I assume he is going to call...
I definitely want to talk to him about his behaviour first and I think in the future I will also break off the conversation and tell him I only speak to him when he is ready to accept me as the person who I am. Which doesn't mean of course he can't point out when I'm not right. But not like this. I really hope he will understand and I'll be able to explain all this...

[ChibiFelicia]

Regarding your first question. I dont know how old you guys are etc but just speaking from my experience, at that point i felt our future was just "we'll see how it goes". Which wasn't great i must admit. At that point we both couldnt make a move. I just HAD to think about other things. The relationship was going good and thats what i had to focus on. I knew i couldn't talk about the issue of fiance/spousal visas because well A i wasnt ready really and he was no way ready. I just had to look up other ways for me to get there. Him moving to me was a no no from the start, he made that clear. But now its a different story. Commitment i guess.

With regard to the second issue, i think you need to talk to him about it. I mean excuse my use of language but i was a total bitch before i met my current SO. I said what i wanted because i honestly didn't care about the ex bf ( long story short it was an extremely unhealthy relationship where his emotional abuse just took it's toll and i dished it out and wasnt strong enough to walk away).

I agree that his behaviour needs to be addressed first. Its a fine line that im sure he will cross again but dealing with someone who is highly emotional can take its toll (i know its hard for my man) and i think yuo both need to make adjustments. Sometimes when you feel your emotions are takign over, walk away. Take a deep breath and talk later. He needs to know that you're trying too. And btw he may not fully understand the first time you explain it but if you're both willing to work on it you'll be fine : ) GL!

[Haley53]

I don't feel like "I only speak to him when he is ready to accept me as the person who I am. " is a good way to approach the issue, especially seeing as it's essentially in the middle of an argument. He may "hate to argue," but treating you like a child only perpetuates the argument and ill-feelings. Saying something to the effect of, "you know what, I'm going to walk away from the conversation until you can learn to accept that this is me", is, honestly, quite confrontational and will bring up his defenses sooner than it will make your point. Where I would insert that is into a calm, rational conversation when you're both calmed down that starts with something like, "I feel like things have been tense between us lately" or "I understand that you don't like it when I get emotional, and I'm working on it, but I feel like what I need more of is understanding that sometimes it's going to happen" and so on, and then talk it out. What might be more helpful in the middle of a potential argument is to simply say that you feel like you need some space to calm down. Don't point fingers at him. If he makes a nasty comment, say, "I feel like we need to talk about this when we can both talk about it more calmly. I'm going to go do [insertsomethinghere] for a while until I'm more relaxed, okay?" and follow through. The most confrontational I would suggest you be is telling him you'll talk but only when you're both ready to talk.

The other thing is that you have to consider, does he have a point? What do you mean by "moody" and "emotional"? While yes, it's important to accept our partners for who they are, that doesn't absolve anyone of responsibility for behaviour that may limit communication. For example, my partner has the tendency to curse when frustrated. As a result, I have had to assert that cursing in regards to anything about us/our relationship is out of line. I simply cannot appreciate being cursed at or even having curse words thrown around when we're trying to sort out a disagreement. Sure, the "F"-word may be more casually used there than it is here, and cursing in general, but it's a dealbreaker for me because I don't see it as being effective communication. Conversely, I used to have the tendency to react very strongly and emotionally to certain situations, even if they were misunderstandings (we bickered a lot before my first visit), and ended up putting a lot of strain on the relationship. Yes, that was me. That was a part of who I was, but that doesn't mean it excused my behaviour.

While it's important to accept your partner for who they are, "this is who I am" can also, in effect, be an excuse, and I think you have to make sure that you're not using it as an excuse. For example, if you have the tendency to be more emotional but are still able to hold a rational and calm conversation, then yes, that's something within you that he needs to accept. If you have the tendency to make a sarcastic or passive aggressive comment, that's something you should work on, and he should accept you need patience to do so. However, if you have the tendency to be all sarcasm and cutting remarks and if you ever try to use your emotions in an argument as a way to get a leg-up, then that's something you might want to work on. There is a difference between effective and ineffective communication, and oftentimes, it takes two to tango. That being said, there are times in which it really is only the one person causing problems with it. However, I would look at the situation and really analyse it. If there really is an unfair merit to what he was saying, then gently point it out, but not during an argument.

In regards to the issue of marriage, I agree with ChibiFelicia. It's possible that he feels like your relationship is simply too young and the talk of fiance and marriage visas could be stressing him out as a result. You say he has commitment issues, but has he ever been married before? Or in a long-term relationship? There's something to be said about the cliche of "once burned, twice shy." Even if he has not, however, knowing one another for two years likely does not make the fact you've been together less than a year any less daunting when it comes to marriage. Both my SO and I were quite close before we started dating, and the both of us had a steady, strong undercurrent of feelings for one another, but still, if he were to ask me to marry him tomorrow, I don't think I would say "yes." I wouldn't say "no," but I'd probably say "not right now." Our relationship, like we are too, is simply too young for marriage. However, I can assure you that if my partner and I butted heads over the issue, I feel like I would probably feel stressed out and frazzled over what to do. I feel like I want to spend my life with him, but getting married so soon would conflict everything I believe, was raised to believe, and that has been reinforced. I feel like I love him and know him, but we haven't got to spend a substantial amount of time together IRL, so what if I don't? I feel like I'm not ready for it, but what if that pushes him away? Makes him think I don't want to be married? etc. While I don't mean to imply your partner would have the same thoughts I do, I am saying that one can come up with a myriad of possible questions simply by putting themselves in that position. If he has commitment issues, regardless of where they resulted from, these questions are going to be further amplified.

Is it possible to drop the issue and discuss it not even this visit but the next? I should note, here, that processing times vary. I believe I heard somewhere that people are mentioning that fiance visas can take up to a year to process and that as of late, there's been no real difference between the processing times of a spousal visa versus a fiance visa. I may be wrong on that, but what's what I have heard, as initially I was thrilled at the possibility of a fiance only, in theory, taking "up to" six months. That being said, putting together a visa application is a huge time and financial commitment and I think you both have to be sure you're ready for it. I think it's all too easy for some people to mistake "I want to be with you forever" for "I'd get married to you tomorrow if I could." Quite frankly, I would love to be with my partner forever, but I'm not ready to be married to him yet. A part of that is because I'm not done with my schooling. I don't want to be married, if I can help it, before I have finished with school (or am almost finished). Perhaps he's feeling the same way about you?

My question is why can't you think about the distance, and closing it via a spousal or fiance visa, further on down the line? While that might extend the distance, it does sound like he does not want to take the plunge until you've completed your training (could he be worried you wouldn't complete it if you both got married?). While I understand the dismay of the idea of extending the distance, if your relationship breaks up because of a temporary, and not at all long-term increase, then quite frankly, your relationship would not have lasted, happily, close-distance either. I do know that it's hard to think about extending the distance even for one more year, and I myself have doubted what I would do in that situation because of the variety of possibilities, but in the end, if he's not ready to get married, you can't force him. I would talk to him about it. Tell him you want to hear his thoughts. As opposed to being so focused on expressing your thoughts and your disappointment, ask him where he's coming from. Why does he want you to finish your training? Is he aware of, and okay with the fact, that postponing marriage might mean extending the distance for another year? etc. It honestly sounds like you might have got caught up in your emotions and therefore done a lot of talking about the logistics and what you wanted and why and what's going to happen now without giving him the opportunity to as much talk time. I feel like if you sat down and asked him to explain, and told him you'd listen to everything before responding, you might get some of your questions answered and the resulting conversations might be more productive.

[Dauntedpoet]

I told him that me and my dad have had bad arguments because of me being sarcastic and that my last boyfriend was very passive and that I said things to him that I now regret. I have never done this to him but I think he completely misunderstood and feels like he has to punish me or something when I get emotional.

First let me say.. I have been through the entire commitment phobia, 'I'm going to be an ass and push you away because I'm scared' thing.

I agree with everything ChibiFelicia said, and would add, that your SO has no right to ASSUME you will treat him as you've treated someone else, since you've never done it, AND you have accepted his word that he has changed about his commitment phobia, even though he is clearly showing signs of it. Actions speak louder than words.

[Romeo s Juliet]

I am really sorry you are going through a hard time, I understand that you are very keen on closing the distance and want to have a happy life with your SO, and you have systematically made plans with him thinking he is on the same page with you. But his response when you brought the idea of marriage utterly disturbed you because it was not something you expected, after all the considerable time you spent talking about things with him about the same issue.

unlike us girls, guys have their own way of coming to terms with things, specially with making relationships official, with proposing, with marrying the love of their life. us girls move faster, emotionally and physically in a relationship, much faster than a guy would. sadly, the time he want to marry/propose to u doesnt depend on the time period he has known you for. Guys definitely have lot of stress/worry in coming to terms with a big change such as getting ready to propose and marry their partner. so he definitely is not ready as you are to put a ring on your finger right now, even though doing so would help you and him in closing the distance next year, after all the visa procedures are cleared. however with that being said, he is wrong because he led you on making you believe that he is ok with all the plans you were making with him. you need to bring that up and then let him know that he shouldnt have led you on while you were explaining your plan to him and you feel let down as to why he would bring up such a point out of the blue when he did not give you a chance to discuss such a issue before.
but i think you need to not talk about getting married or about any plane he has in proposing until he brings such a topic up, as first you need to talk with him why he brought up a new plan all of a sudden without even letting you know and why did he decided to even apply for jobs in Germany if he has no immediate plans in moving to germany anytime soon! you need to let him know you are hurt by him keeping such a big decision away from you, and not letting you know about it anytime prior.

and secondly the way he treats you while you are going through a emotional crisis is really bad :/ i m sorry for saying that, it is true that guys tend to lose their calm, they dont feel like talking with their girl when she is going through a panic episode. i know that sounds so unfiar, but guys get very lost at such a time. I am very emotional, and sometimes when we re chatting and i start discussing an issue with my so i can get very emotional, and i know it puts him in a very stressed state. he tries to keep his cool, but sometimes he just stays away from the computer, it does make me go mad :P but after about 30 mins he comes back all cool mode and talks calmly to me and makes me feel better. he explains why he stays away, it is because he dnt want to scold me or hurt me at such a time by telling me things. so i have a clear picture of why he does that but what your so do by hanging up on you several times even when you try to talk to him its sad specially when he gives no believable reason to you as to why he does that i m sorry for you. no matter what kind of an emotional wreak you are if he loves you truly he would accept you. he wont ignore you at your most difficult times like that. he needs to learn that it is who you are, he need to accept u the way you are. and he doesnt seem to respect you by hanging up and snapping at you like that :/ this is a man you want to marry, so you need to discuss that issue. and ask him what is making him snap/withdraw everytime you are moody.

so keep the need to talk marriage plans with him for later on, first address why he didnt acknowledge you of his plans about staying more time in the US, and what makes he snap at you and doesnt want to talk to you while you are in a mooody state. Good Luck

[Zephii]

I only read the first post, not the whole thread so if I missed something I'm very sorry.. but..
I can't say that I blame him on the marriage front. If I hadn't been with someone even a full year and they wanted me to propose I'd be running for the hills. I don't know how anyone can determine what they want for the rest of their lives in under a year, and LD at that. I also think that marriage is not the only way to show commitment. He's gone LD with you and stuck it out - that in itself is commitment. I dunno, I just think being older doesn't mean he's going to rush into things and that you might be expecting too much.

With the visas and where to live, even the easiest option tends to be hard. The system is just not easy (with good reason of course, but still). No matter where you go, you have to take the risk that your plans might fall through and you wont get the jobs you want or wont afford the area you want etc. So there's no good stressing endlessly about if you can or can't manage... you just need to save up as much as you can, do as much research as possible and then give it your all. If it doesn't work out, something else surely will.

I completely feel for you on being upset that he hasn't thought through how the visas and getting you in the country need to work, but I think you need to not take that so personally. Visas are confusing and scary, and lots of people put off thinking about them til last minute (and they suffer for that but they still do it). Lots of people just like to dream but they aren't good enough at planning to realise the legwork it will take to make those dreams come true. Likely it's not a reflection of his love and commitment but just a part of who he is: it could be more about him and not really about you/what he feels for you.

On to the way he speaks to you though... that's... well.. I don't know why you put up with that. I certainly would not want to marry a guy who couldn't hold me and tell me he loved me when I was at my absolute worst. I want to know that my partner is brave and will face life's challenges by my side, not run for the hills or hang up the phone when shit gets tough. It could be a commitment phobia thing, or it could just be part of his personality. I'm leaning toward the second because you said he seems to think he needs to punish you any time your emotional.

There's not much you can do if you can't get him to communicate with you though. Do you think you'd have better luck with written communication? That tends to lack emotion more than a phone call and might be easier for him to read/digest?
Best of wishes...

[Kiyama]

So first, thanks everyone for your repsonses. I didn't have time anymore last night to reply as my SO called.
Well so he apologised immediately for his behaviour the night before. He said he was upset because he had to deal with something work related in his free time, which had happened four nights in a row in which he didn't get much sleep and so he overreacted. He said himself though that that's no excuse and that he's really sorry.
We talked about the issue generally though and he admitted I had a point, especially since I told him he can't compare the way I treat him to past relationships and also that I have been working on not reacting overly emotional and he admits too that it doesn't happen often anymore and so I asked him for more understanding in weak moments. I think we were both happy with how the conversation went and I hope I could bring my point across but I know that I still have to work on myself.
I think some of you misunderstood a bit what I said he has to punish me when I get emotional. He is definitely there for me when I feel bad and need emotional support. I was horribly depressed a few weeks ago and he called me several times a day to check on me and make sure I was fine. He even send me a little love poem he had written himself to cheer me up. When I say emotional I mean it more in a way that he thinks I'm attacking him and me having the wrong tone when I am mad. He hates arguments and then he snaps even though I haven't done anything wrong.

With regard to the marriage: he says he doesn't know why he reacted that way and that maybe in his head he was oversimplifying things, which is something he often does. He says he never thought it could be so difficult for me to come to the US.
I took your advice and backed off. I said I would understand if the thought of marriage stressed him out and that maybe it was a bit early for us to think about these things. And I also told him we might have to extend the distance then and that really shocked him He was like "what?!" Basically he went on saying that I had got him all wrong. That his remark about committment issues did have a true core but that with me things were different, that he just hadn't met the right one before me and he was ready to get married to me from the start and that he didn't want to be long distance even longer. I know this might sound a bit sudden but we talked about it for a long time and we even had a look at engagement rings and all that. I'm still a bit unsure about whether all of this is real or not but I'll be going over there in a few days so we'll have time to figure it out and talk it through in person.

I really appreciate all your input. It gave me a new perspective and I stand by what I said to him. That we didn't have to get married straight away and that we have other options we can look into. Well, I'll see where it will go from here and I'll definitely keep you updated

[Romeo s Juliet]

I m really happy for you all the best and make sure you take one day at a time take care!