Should I accept their friendship?

[Cyger]

Hi, everyone. I was hoping a few people wouldn't mind giving me their input about my problem with my girlfriend. The issue at hand is that my girlfriend wants to be friends with another guy. This problem actually began a while ago, perhaps a year or so ago. Typically, I wouldn't mind my girlfriend to have a male friend. It's gonna happen. I have female friends, so it's only fair. However, in the past, he's tried to get her to leave me for him. He's even taken her phone to make threats that he'll come over and "beat me up," persay. She was also emotionally unfaithful to me with him during this time as well, so it's a given that for a long time, trust began to become an issue for me. Eventually, however, she finally stopped talking to him. I forgave her, and moved on, never to think of it, again.

Here is where it gets complicated. Very recently, I found out that she began talking to him, again, and actually meeting with him alone. This happened during a week or two period in which her psychologist suggested we both take a break from each other to allow her to calm her mind and relax a bit in order to recover from stress. The reason for this is that my girlfriend has BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I don't know how many people know what that is, but it's a very severe mental illness. But anyway, I agree to do this, although disgruntled and worried about the consequences. After we got back together is when I realized that she was back in contact with this other guy. Needless to say, red flags immediately popped up in every part of my mind. I immediately tried to talk to her about it, and figure out why she was meeting with him, again. All she had to say was "he's just a friend. I was lonely." From this point on, I tried to talk to her about what's happened in the past and what it did to our relationship. I've even attempted to ask her to cut off ties with permanently. Her one and only argument continued to be "he's just a friend. I don't have feelings for him. He's not trying anything." She also eventually said she doesn't remember him trying to get her to leave me for him. I was at a loss, not knowing what to even say or think in response to any of this. But I continued to try to get her to cut ties, and use every argument I could muster. I felt it seemed reasonable what I was asking, but I had no hard proof to show her what kind of person he is, and what his intentions are. Until one day ago - on her Facebook page, of all places.

After we got together, I left a silly little message on her wall, telling the world how much I loved her and would work to make our relationship the best it could be. About an hour later, the other guy leaves a message saying "Truth is, I am glad I got back into contact with you! I missed you so much! I hope we hang out a lot more <3" I may have been paranoid, but considering it was almost immediately after I left my message, I "knew" it was a taunt to me, so I responded by saying "I see what you did there," followed by countless reiterations that my girlfriend and I are in a relationship, and that I'd appreciate it if he'd respect her and our relationship. This was my response to every message he left, worded differently. I hope this won't be a bother for others to read, but these are the messages he left in order (also, his messages were public, so everyone was able to read what was said):

1) "Truth is, I am gong to pull my punches, because [she] asked me to."

2) "Alright, let's get something straight here. I don't particularly like you. Whatsoever. Secondly she belongs to no one, she is her own person. She makes her own decisions. And she decided to leave you long ago. Please do not insinuate you even have a shred of respect for her. You are the most vile creature that the heavens have ever birthed. I am ashamed to share a planet with you. Now, if you think that you have any relevance in [her] life henceforth, you are sadly mistaken. It will be me. I will he here, showing her truth and caring. It will be me to show her happiness and love. And little by little, she will forget you ever existed."

3) "The way you speak of her in this conversation denotes otherwise. All the same, she is not. You have been misinformed. You lash out at me, and tell me these things, as if you are still very much so in control. I pity you. I really do. Go get help."

4) "I don't know if you understand. Though it is not my place to tell you otherwise, I suppose. All you need to know is that I will stand by [her]. I will defend her. There should be nothing to demonstrate otherwise."

5) "Ray, you stress this point. This. Imaginary point. Please. For the love of the ENTIRE world. Get over yourself. You are nothing more than a nuisance. I am quite annoyed. You, I do not like. Whatsoever. You have done little to no good in this girl's life. I would respect nothing you ever do, unless it is ceremonial disembowelment."

When he refers to me saying that I'm saying she's my property, he is responding to when I say "she is my girlfriend. We are in a relationship. Please respect that." Before this conversation, my girlfriend had made attempts to act like she got rid of him several times, while making it so that I could not see her "Friend's List" on Facebook, but some friends informed me that they could still see her associating with this guy through their own pages. This very much had made me upset. AFTER this conversation, she woke to reading it herself, and came at me saying that she was disappointed in me, and that she was still going to be friends with him. Through many talks through the next two days, I broke down her argument of being friends with him and denying everything he did. She then turned her argument into "I want someone to play DnD with (Dungeons and Dragons)" so I went on about I don't think playing a game with someone for a hobby is worth the risk. Blah blah, the same argument(s) kept coming up and I did my very best to be calm and try to understand her. I made many attempts to show her how much I love her and care, since one of her reasons was that she's afraid of being abandoned and never having friends. Eventually she suddenly said "Fine, I'll get rid of [him] BUT, I am getting rid of Facebook, too."

I tried to convince her to keep FB to use it keep in touch with friends, but to no avail. So she went through the supposed motion of deleting him, blocking him, then deleting FB. Afterwards, her entire personality changed (literally, almost as if it was dissociative disorder, but, it's not) and she just mocked everything I said to her afterwards, saying "uh huh, suuuure, okay then, w/e" with very distinct voice, tagging creepy laughs with each comment she made, to say the least. I did everything I could to calm her down, and at one point considered calling a clinic because of the bizarre behavior. I decided to act silly and lovey dovey with her, and that seemed to work for w/e reason. Afterwards, she said she didn't remember anything she said or did - just that she was pissed.

Anyway, the most recent events occurred over the past three days. I don't feel as though I can trust that she'll keep the ties cut or if I can even trust her in any aspect of the relationship after this whole occurrence. I feel as though it seems like common sense to not associate oneself with someone like that while being in a relationship, especially if they intend to spend time together alone. But I feel as through my thoughts on the matter may be blinded by jealousy, fear, or something else. I'm sorry for the long read and perhaps confusing people with the explanation of the psychological aspects. I just feel lost and confused as to what the right course of action would be. We've been together for three and a half years, if anyone is curious about my commitment to this. But if you've made it this far, I appreciate your reading my post, and would also appreciate your opinion or thoughts on the matter. Thanks.

[Kwala]

Cyger, I'm really saddened to read your story, particularly to see how your circumstances have caused you to lose faith in your own judgment. It seems like a very confusing time.

The simple fact is that your girlfriend has terrible boundaries and is not respecting you or your relationship sufficiently. There are red crosses (not flags) galore here. A loving, respectful girlfriend would not insist on re-establishing a friendship with a guy she has been unfaithful with and who has disrespected you in the past in all the ways you mentioned. A loving, respectful girlfriend would not continue to allow said guy to disrespect and taunt you on FB. This is so OMG-wrong. As you say, it's just common sense.

I don't doubt for a second that you love her dearly and are committed to her. That much is obvious from your actions. There is an elephant in the room here though, and it's called BPD. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to opine on relationships in a LDR forum, but you have asked for opinions and mental health is my field of study. So I would ask you: how solid is this diagnosis?

[folclor]

The only thing about this post is you don't post what you said to this guy so it's very one-sided.

However, from what you've described I totally understand how you feel. It sounds very much like she may just need someone close to her often. If that's the case is there any way to talk to her more frequently or go see her more frequently? It sounds like y'all need to sit down and have a conversation about what's appropriate and what isn't. But you must have this conversation when she's able to hear it.

[JennyRW]

The simple fact is that your girlfriend has terrible boundaries and is not respecting you or your relationship sufficiently. There are red crosses (not flags) galore here. A loving, respectful girlfriend would not insist on re-establishing a friendship with a guy she has been unfaithful with and who has disrespected you in the past in all the ways you mentioned. A loving, respectful girlfriend would not continue to allow said guy to disrespect and taunt you on FB. This is so OMG-wrong. As you say, it's just common sense.

Kwala is rigth and also I would like to add the fact that your gf has selective memory, she only remembers what is convinient for her, and what is not convinient she forgets...

[Cyger]

I tried to explain what I had said, since much of it seemed repetitive, but I'll post what I said in response to each:

1) "Truth is, I am gong to pull my punches, because [she] asked me to."

1 (my response) Truth is, I don't care. You're the one who needs to watch it. Shes my girlfriend, understand? Please understand that. She's off limits, if you care to respect her as much as you want to claim.

2) "Alright, let's get something straight here. I don't particularly like you. Whatsoever. Secondly she belongs to no one, she is her own person. She makes her own decisions. And she decided to leave you long ago. Please do not insinuate you even have a shred of respect for her. You are the most vile creature that the heavens have ever birthed. I am ashamed to share a planet with you. Now, if you think that you have any relevance in [her] life henceforth, you are sadly mistaken. It will be me. I will he here, showing her truth and caring. It will be me to show her happiness and love. And little by little, she will forget you ever existed."

2 (my response) I mentioned nothing of her being "my property" or that I own her. She's my girlfriend. There's a difference. You need to respect that boundary, please, sir.

3) "The way you speak of her in this conversation denotes otherwise. All the same, she is not. You have been misinformed. You lash out at me, and tell me these things, as if you are still very much so in control. I pity you. I really do. Go get help."

3 (my response) How I speak of her? She's "my girlfriend." As in one would say "my mother." She is very much my girlfriend, sir. And I am not lashing out. She is in a relationship with me. Please respect that.

4) "I don't know if you understand. Though it is not my place to tell you otherwise, I suppose. All you need to know is that I will stand by [her]. I will defend her. There should be nothing to demonstrate otherwise."

4 (my response) I applaud your charisma to defend her. But as I said, she is in a relationship. Please respect that and make no attempts to be with her. It is disrespectful. If not for that, I would be happy that you were her friend.

5) "Ray, you stress this point. This. Imaginary point. Please. For the love of the ENTIRE world. Get over yourself. You are nothing more than a nuisance. I am quite annoyed. You, I do not like. Whatsoever. You have done little to no good in this girl's life. I would respect nothing you ever do, unless it is ceremonial disembowelment."

The only thing about this post is you don't post what you said to this guy so it's very one-sided.

However, from what you've described I totally understand how you feel. It sounds very much like she may just need someone close to her often. If that's the case is there any way to talk to her more frequently or go see her more frequently? It sounds like y'all need to sit down and have a conversation about what's appropriate and what isn't. But you must have this conversation when she's able to hear it.

[Cyger]

I don't doubt for a second that you love her dearly and are committed to her. That much is obvious from your actions. There is an elephant in the room here though, and it's called BPD. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to opine on relationships in a LDR forum, but you have asked for opinions and mental health is my field of study. So I would ask you: how solid is this diagnosis?

To be honest, that's been part of the issue. One psychologist began to diagnose her with BPD, when she was still a minor, but her mother forced her to change psychologists when this began to happen. The new one claimed that there were no signs of BPD whatsoever. And thirdly, I have my own therapist who I talk to about my girlfriend, and they seem to think that her behaviors, actions, and thoughts point towards the possibility of BPD as well. However, obviously, since they aren't personally her therapist, they can't diagnose anything. My girlfriend hasn't gone to see anyone for about a year and a half, I believe.

[JennyRW]

I just want to add that if my bf would do what your gf is doing I would break up with him because its a lack of respect and if he cannot respect me then he doesn't love me. I don't want to say that you should break up with her, you have t take your own decition, but there are a lot of bad things on her attitudes and decitions. I just dont understand how someone that loves you can treat you like that, that is way is hard for me to believe that she loves you :s
I'm sorry if what I said is hard, but that is how I see it and sometimes we need that someone say this hard things to us so we can open our eyes to take better desitions for ourselfs.

[Kwala]

To be honest, that's been part of the issue. One psychologist began to diagnose her with BPD, when she was still a minor, but her mother forced her to change psychologists when this began to happen. The new one claimed that there were no signs of BPD whatsoever. And thirdly, I have my own therapist who I talk to about my girlfriend, and they seem to think that her behaviors, actions, and thoughts point towards the possibility of BPD as well. However, obviously, since they aren't personally her therapist, they can't diagnose anything. My girlfriend hasn't gone to see anyone for about a year and a half, I believe.

BPD shares something in common with the other Cluster B disorders: a weakened sense of self which relies on external validation. I think you are seeing that here in your GF's need to have herself validated in these other opposite-sex fuzzy friendships. While some people say we should "run like hell" from BPD, I think we can be more compassionate than that. DSM diagnoses aren't hard and fast prescriptions, and to some extent, we all share some muted features of these conditions.

Having said that, I think there is a serious problem here, because your GF doesn't seem to take responsibility for her own mental health. There's no easy way to say this, but I think there are some bad signs here that the relationship is on the way out. Unless she decides to start taking responsibility, I think you are going to have no choice but to walk away. You need to be the one to put up a boundary about this, if you are strong enough. It's not about punishing her. It's about putting an end to a destructive pattern that leaves you feeling empty and confused. You have a right to be happy and to feel safe with your GF.

[JennyRW]

You need to be the one to put up a boundary about this, if you are strong enough. It's not about punishing her. It's about putting an end to a destructive pattern that leaves you feeling empty and confused. You have a right to be happy and to feel safe with your GF.

Kwala is right, this is about what is best for YOU and you have the right to a healthy relantionship where you are respected and apreciated

[Miramaid]

I did not read the responses. I will tell you a story of a friend of mine who is older than you (I suspect you are fairly young).
My friend is dating a girl 10 years younger than him so her behavior is very much just that: a behavior of a young pretty girl who likes attention. Long story short, she had a male friend before she met her current BF (my friend) and I do not quite know if they dated with that friend before or not, but the fact is that she had cheated on her BF with that "friend". She cheated and told her BF herself that she did. He did not have to find out or anything. She did apologize and she said she felt bad etc. However, she never broke the friendship ties with that guy. They were friends before and they are friends after.
My friend had guts and heart to forgive her coz she was honest and told him herself and apologized. However, she made it clear that that guy is her good friend and it is only for her to decide who to be friends with and who not. No one can tell her who to be friends with. My friend had a talk with that other guy and made it pretty clear that if he touches his GF again, he will pretty much be at least severely injured.
Long story short, the girl is still friends with that guy. The text and talk a lot. My friend doesn't necessarily like it, but he believes (and I agree) that if she really wants to stay in touch with him and communicate she still will only secretly, so he would rather her not hide from him and be aware of their communication. Also he is pretty sure that the guy will not touch her after talking to him.

My friend recently met that girl's parents and they are moving in together soon and he is thinking of engagement. Things are ok between them. She still is friends with that other guy.

My personal opinion is that in my friend's situation I think he has pretty strong guts to handle it the way he does. I could not. I also think that it is true that you can NOT tell someone to not be friends with someone. I understand that sometimes it is extremely upsetting, but all you can do is let the other person know how you feel and let them decide if they want to get rid of some friend or not. It is also a matter of trust. You do not sound like you trust your GF. The thing is that there are millions of men in the World and i am sure many of them would like your GF and would hit on her and want to have sex with her. In fact those men are everywhere. So what are you going to do? You can not hide her from every guy who likes her. What YOU need to be sure is that SHE likes you enough to not want to be with those other guys. And for that you need to be the best man you can be. Not some paranoid jealous freak (not that you are, I am just saying so you do not become one). Yes that guy may be likes your GF and you can tell her that you are concerned. But if she says that he is just a friend then you need to believe her unless SHE does something that proves the opposite (like SHE cheats on you or SHE says to that guy that she misses him <3) . The guy may even try to make moves, but, hey, if your GF loves you she will not act on it and will make it clear to that guy that she is with YOU. Have faith in her!
If someone wants to cheat they cheat even in marriage living together. Have some confidence in yourself and trust your woman. If she is with you it is probably because there was something special about you when you two met. Do not ruin it. Good luck!

[Zapookie]

I think Miramaid is right. You cannot ask someone to cut another out of their life, it has to be their decision to do so. You need to trust your girlfriend enough that she won't do anything with this guy. If you don't have any trust there, then it obviously needs to be worked on, or maybe you both should try and reconsider whether this is worth it? Because it just doesn't seem like she respects your relationship or the boundaries of it.

[Cyger]

I think Miramaid is right. You cannot ask someone to cut another out of their life, it has to be their decision to do so. You need to trust your girlfriend enough that she won't do anything with this guy. If you don't have any trust there, then it obviously needs to be worked on, or maybe you both should try and reconsider whether this is worth it? Because it just doesn't seem like she respects your relationship or the boundaries of it.

Yeah, I understand what both of you mean. I know the decision is ultimately hers, but it doesn't mean I have to be alright with it, either, or accept it. Usually I'd be fine with her being friends with him, even after the emotional infidelity. However, sometimes just because someone wants something, doesn't mean we should always freely allow it. Partners are just that, and I feel I have the right to give my input and ask, not force, that she cut ties. Especially with her mental condition and his behavior of making threats and forcefully trying to push his way into a relationship with her, I'm worried that her need to be fed attention and affection will eventually cause her to make a mistake. The situation alone is making her condition worse and feeding the flame. I'm also worried that if he is willing to make threats publicly and say the things he has said, I have to wonder what he does or says in private and may do when they're alone - whether through her choices or not. Also, thank you to everyone who has given me their input.

[Malaga]

This guy explicitly said he doesn't respect your relationship and he plans to replace you. So no, I don't think you should accept their friendship. This is not even about jealousy. It's like giving him green light to have a shot at winning her over. And she's not a prize to be won - relationships shouldn't even be viewed in such way. However, he obviously does, and she obviously gets kicks from having two guys argue over her, whatever her reasons may be.
It's the same whether she's mentally ill or not. Staying friends with people who are so obviously set out to break you apart is unacceptable IMO.

Another thing is can you trust her to break the ties with him if you ask her to do so. She obviously doesn't want to and doesn't understand what makes you upset, even after reading his replies to you on her FB. He downright insulted you and your feelings for her, and she took his side. Not to mention the fact she lied to you.

May I ask what do you get from this relationship? I get that you love her and have sympathy for her mental condition, but from what I could tell she's neither trustworthy or all that caring about you. You cannot help her if she doesn't want your help. Is it really worth all this drama?

[Miramaid]

Partners are just that, and I feel I have the right to give my input and ask, not force, that she cut ties

you have already asked many times. She obviously wants to stay friends with him. Continuing asking will make it a force. If you do not like her decision then it is up to you to accept it or not. It is for you to walk away from it or not.

I'm worried that her need to be fed attention and affection will eventually cause her to make a mistake.

you have no control over it. If she will make a mistake then she will make a mistake. There is nothing you can do. She is an adult.

The situation alone is making her condition worse and feeding the flame. I'm also worried that if he is willing to make threats publicly and say the things he has said, I have to wonder what he does or says in private and may do when they're alone - whether through her choices or not. Also, thank you to everyone who has given me their input.

How is it making her condition worse? And are you sure that it is what you think is making her condition worse and not something else?
He may say all kinds of things to her in private. He may say that you are not a worthy person, that you are not good for her, that if he was with her she would love it better. He may say to her how beautiful and sexy she is - all of it. Many other men can tell her the same thing. So what now? I understand that it is bothersome, but, again, have some confidence in yourself! Believe that whatever sweet or not sweet words anyone can tell her, you know who you are and you know your worth and hope that she does also. If you think that she doesn't then again it is a good thing to know and it is up to you to be with someone who doesn't know your worth or not to be.

I know it is all easy to say, but read what you are writing. INSECURITY and JEALOUSY is screaming through your posts. I am not saying that you have no reason at all to feel bothered. You do. But you also need some confidence in yourself and trust in your GF. Or you need to leave the relationship if you feel like it is not worth it.

[screammaayday]

Cyger, I can relate to how you feel. I've been through something similar. I've tried to look at it as flattering when someone looks at my girlfriend now, but I still feel that anger when they do. Especially if they know she is taken. He should respect your relationship. And he most certainly should not be telling you you're not good enough. You have every right to ask her to cut ties. Especially if she's been emotionally unfaithful with him before. BPD or not, girls like the attention. It makes them feel beautiful when other guys other than their boyfriend tell them that, because unfortunately, they feel it is our job to tell them that and that takes away from the meaning.

My best suggestion: decide if you can handle her talking to him. If you cannot, I'd say she has to make a decision. If she loves you, it should not be a question of who she chooses. I wish you the best.

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 PM ----------

Cyger, I can relate to how you feel. I've been through something similar. I've tried to look at it as flattering when someone looks at my girlfriend now, but I still feel that anger when they do. Especially if they know she is taken. He should respect your relationship. And he most certainly should not be telling you you're not good enough. You have every right to ask her to cut ties. Especially if she's been emotionally unfaithful with him before. BPD or not, girls like the attention. It makes them feel beautiful when other guys other than their boyfriend tell them that, because unfortunately, they feel it is our job to tell them that and that takes away from the meaning.

My best suggestion: decide if you can handle her talking to him. If you cannot, I'd say she has to make a decision. If she loves you, it should not be a question of who she chooses. I wish you the best.