Where I've been.

[jennyjellybeans]

As someone who works in a library and who has taken classes in researching, you have to use critical thinking with all sources. "The Media" is not some cabal trying to take down Scientology. It's made up of both reliable sources and unreliable sources. Each source should be vetted on its own terms. And when your primary source is from the institution you're researching, you have to look at it with an even more critical eye, as you can't hardly call it unbiased. Everyone you've met is friendly? Well yes, they're trying to recruit you. You agree with everything they stand for? Printed up in pretty brochures, even terrible things can sound pretty. At best, any information you're getting from Scientology itself is biased. At worst, it's propaganda designed to indoctrinate new followers.

If this works for you, it does. Everyone is free to follow their beliefs and do what feels right to them. But there are a lot of red flags here, and you yourself don't sound very convinced this is all as shiny as it seems. Follow your heart, but don't discard your inner voice. If things seem hinkey, they probably are.

Exactly. Which is why its a very...um...headache causing situation. lol. Believe me, I've looked at both sides repeatedly. One side promising that its not bad, just strict, and having documents on how they've helped others and members vouching that they have never been abused, forced into abortion, anything. (I actually spoke to a man who's wife had gotten pregnant in the organization and they chose to leave to take care of there child, in which case the church supported them) On the other side, they call it a financial scam, a cult, and every other bad name in the book. Now I do not in any way believe this is a cult. The word "cult" has many different definitions. I could call school a cult cause I'm forced to go there and take classes of hardly any of my interest. NOW, i believe a cult to be a bunch of satanic blood drinking worshipers (thats just me though), which clearly this is not. As for the financial scam...well my opinion on that varies. I believe all religions have there moments with that. Though Scientology has proven it isn't shy of a couple millions of dollars...but its also proven an effective system of therapy for its members, just not for the ones who've left and criticized it after. Which they have every right to...which makes it harder in my decision.

Now who to believe? Like everyone's said its up to me. I don't agree on some things but for the whole, I consider it a great thing for me. Still, when I turn 18, before I join, I'm going to go to a missionary in my town and get some information and see for myself what it is like. Maybe even have an auditing session. It's one thing to believe in something, another to experience and see it for myself. So I can't make a decision this big without prior experience. My boyfriend had very lightly, shown and told me things about his religion. He went on a Scientology cruise ship, has been to many different courses, and even read and practiced some things on me before. That's not enough though, I've got to get out there and learn. And when it comes down to it, I have to decide either to walk away from it all or join.

Well, whatever you do with your life it's your choice. However, I do agree caution should be taken. You're probably really tired of hearing that, eh? ^^;; I'm a very religious person. Though I don't always do everything I should according to my faith, I am very much a religious person. When you go into talking about giving things up for religion, I understand that as well. It's obvious that some things must change for one to follow what one believes. However, don't throw everything away for this. I'm glad you're looking into it, please continue to go into it with your eyes wide open.

Believe me, I am being SO cautious! I'm not just jumping into this, I mean if I was, would I really be posting this asking for all your opinions? Nah! I'd probably already run off and joined by this point. I'm never tired of hearing it, because everyone has a right to tell me it, especially with something as life changing as this. Thanks, I really appreciate the understanding, and I'm trying to look at this very wide eyed lol. Its just so hard when both sides have counterarguments to each accusation.

[Gemini]

imo you should stack up the pro's and cons it helps a lot in deciding a decision looking at them side by side. But sadly go with your instinct if you feel its wrong it most likely is

Our instinct is good at knowing what to really do in situations like this, and even relationships when you feel something isnt right it isnt you know there's little red flags showing you "Somethings wrong here! dont do it!!" and you should listen to that....

[Zephii]

I love religion, I don't know a heck of a lot about scientology though. Really it sounds like an expensive version of "the bethern" or "the family".

I have a question - You've said many times that you believe what they believe. Well what exactly do they believe.. specifically, what do they believe that other religions do not but that feels right to you? I know most religions have the same core principles.

[jennyjellybeans]

I love religion, I don't know a heck of a lot about scientology though. Really it sounds like an expensive version of "the bethern" or "the family".

I have a question - You've said many times that you believe what they believe. Well what exactly do they believe.. specifically, what do they believe that other religions do not but that feels right to you? I know most religions have the same core principles.

The definition of Scientology is "knowing how to know", basically expressing the need for Scientologists to learn and see and be able to handle things around them. They also believe in "thetan" or our immortal being, that each and every person is literally a spirit/soul who has lived many past lives. Like reincarnation but a bit different. Scientologists also experience auditing, a session of "spiritual therapy" in which an E-Meter is able to electrically sense when someone is feeling negative emotion when they talk about a past experience. (Now I don't necessarily believe in that until I experience it myself, which I haven't.) Through courses and auditing, one improves himself, and can rank up on the Bridge to Total Freedom. The Bridge is just a more scientific way of keeping track of how someone is progressing mentally and spiritually. It's an actual chart. Anyway, the point is to become a "Clear" or one who has no reactive mind, which is the part of our mind that holds onto negative events within our life, some events that keep us in fear of certain things (For me that would be my fear of water from almost drowning when I was 6). When your clear, you simply think with a "cleared mind" or are able to look past negative things, and rationally deal with them and not let them stop you from anything. Now LRH (L Ron Hubbard) wanted a cleared planet, he wanted people to clear so they could be happy and not let negative things impact them to a destructive extent. (Like if someone died and you NEVER got over it and it effected your ability to socialize etc or if you committed or tried to commit suicide because of negative) Anyway, after Clear you progress more up the Bridge, becoming different levels of "Operating Thetans" or OTs. Each OT learns to deal with a specific problem in life and once cleared, gains more in ranks. Also, Scientologists believe physiatric medication is all in all ineffective and destructive. I believe this. I've done a paper on bipolar disorder and SEEN affects of medication with children/teens that made me very hostile towards medication. I do in fact believe, CERTAIN pain medications can be necessary and helpful. Its just mind altering drugs I cannot stand, nor operations. Anyway, Scientologists believe there are other ways of getting past things WITHOUT medication. Scientologists also want to help the planet: help your fellow man, help your community, help a stranger, etc etc. These people are just usually HARDCORE into helping others in any way. Thats why they dedicate their lives in the organization, they don't care about money/possessions etc because they just feel it's their obligation in life to help those around them and try to make the world a better place. They work so hard because they are so dedicated to trying to bring change. They go out and DO, not say they will or procrastinate. They believe we only have a short time to help the planet before it gets to the point where we can't do anything.

Anyway, theres a brief "summary". This is what most believe, as for higher members, you never really know. They could be after a completely different thing...money, free labor, etc. I won't disregard the fact that yeah, the organization is controlling, and yeah it may or may not have it glamourous aspects but no religion is perfect. They really just aren't. It's ultimately up to the person to decide, you know what? It ain't perfect but I believe in it anyway.

As for the group the Sea Organization...you can really kinda compare it to the Vatican, you have your members at the top and you go down the system like a pyramid. Now at the bottom, you got all the people who believe in the whole what is promised, but who knows whats going on at the top?

Either way, in whole I believe in the religions principles, I like it. It works for me, not for everyone, and I respect people who stick to their beliefs. I just have a feeling that the courses they offer really could help some people. I know they've helped me. As for being "Clear", yeah i'd like a cleared planet but in the whole I know that's not going to happen anytime soon. lol. Getting trillons of people to have happiness ain't gonna happen. But if I can bring happiness to just a few, then I'll be a happier person knowing I played a part in that.

[Zephii]

Facinating! So, you have a different God from Christians? I never knew.

So.. with the medicine thing... I too am a little against medication. I don't take it if I think I can get over the problem on my own, I hate taking my BC (and now don't have to YAY LDR! lol), I hesitate to take even pain meds... but, there's some things you need meds for right. I mean... What if your bf gets cancer? Or one of your close family, or you? You don't believe in medication or opperations... do you just let them die? I mean, I'm all for accepting death as a natural progression... but I just can't see these beliefs being practical.
Does this also mean you don't vaccinate your children? And thus are putting everyone elses children/society at risk? That can't be positive.

Just some random thoughts. If at any point you think I'm attacking you let me know. I'm totally not, I'm just interested and enjoy debating. You can attack my religion right back if you want

[kteire]

"Mind-altering" medications can save someone's life. Depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder... they can't be overcome by positive thinking and faith alone. Yeah, those can help, but they're extremely complicated issues, and you can't understand it and how the medications can save your life until you've lived through it. I think that is the biggest frustration I have with scientology - making people feel like they aren't doing the right thing by getting help and seeking proper treatment.
Like I said on the last board about this, I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for medication. I don't believe a religion should ever restrict someone from getting healthy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not super gung-ho on the idea of every single thing being treated with medication, and I'm happy to be off my meds, but the truth is that they do save a massive number of lives.

[jennyjellybeans]

Facinating! So, you have a different God from Christians? I never knew.

So.. with the medicine thing... I too am a little against medication. I don't take it if I think I can get over the problem on my own, I hate taking my BC (and now don't have to YAY LDR! lol), I hesitate to take even pain meds... but, there's some things you need meds for right. I mean... What if your bf gets cancer? Or one of your close family, or you? You don't believe in medication or opperations... do you just let them die? I mean, I'm all for accepting death as a natural progression... but I just can't see these beliefs being practical.
Does this also mean you don't vaccinate your children? And thus are putting everyone elses children/society at risk? That can't be positive.

Just some random thoughts. If at any point you think I'm attacking you let me know. I'm totally not, I'm just interested and enjoy debating. You can attack my religion right back if you want

Well, that's an interesting concept. Scientology has presented itself a religious philosophy with really no "God" just infinite, believing that we will come back, that our "thetan" will come back. However, that's not to say there are people practicing Scientology that don't have a God. Scientology is universal, it can be practiced by people of any religion. You don't have to "commit" just to Scientology. You can believe in the Christian God while also practicing Scientology.

That would be an interesting case...As I am not officially a member of Scientology I actually don't know how they handle cancer cases. As for operations, I should have clarified I don't agree with lobotomies and mental operations. Now if say I broke my leg...I would obviously need something done about that. Or if I needed a kidney transplant...sure. Vaccination is allowed, there might be some Scientologists who don't do it, but I believe most do.

Nah. I neither feel attacked nor would attack your religion. I'm not like that.

[Miramaid]

I think you should do what you feel is right in your heart, but you know you don't have to sign your life over to a religious organisation in order to make a difference in this world. js.

THIS!!!

[Zephii]

Ok I don't get it. If "thetan" isn't a God, what is it? (Yes, I'm slow)

[jennyjellybeans]

Ok I don't get it. If "thetan" isn't a God, what is it? (Yes, I'm slow)

Haha, its totally ok! I know its an odd concept! Think of a "thetan" as one's soul, or as the PERSON him or herself. The term is derived from the Greek letter theta, which in Scientology represents "the source of life, or life itself." "Thetan" is the Scientology term for the person and without that thetan, a person is nothing more than a body and mind, kind of like a robot. Thetan is kind of what 'makes a person a person', its them (their feelings, personality, etc). Hope I cleared that up okay?

[jennyjellybeans]

"Mind-altering" medications can save someone's life. Depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder... they can't be overcome by positive thinking and faith alone. Yeah, those can help, but they're extremely complicated issues, and you can't understand it and how the medications can save your life until you've lived through it. I think that is the biggest frustration I have with scientology - making people feel like they aren't doing the right thing by getting help and seeking proper treatment.
Like I said on the last board about this, I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for medication. I don't believe a religion should ever restrict someone from getting healthy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not super gung-ho on the idea of every single thing being treated with medication, and I'm happy to be off my meds, but the truth is that they do save a massive number of lives.

You do make a good argument. I totally get your viewpoint. I just rely on natural ways of improvement. I believe Scientology is right in their manner that working negative emotions off through exercise or productivity can greatly help. Though I do know that's not the case for everyone. Its a controversial thing, prescription drugs. I do not approve their use, and I'd rather see them abolished all together but that's just my view, I won't protest against your previous use of them or anyone else's, its just when it affects children or causes teenagers to commit suicide is my issue. I think there are other ways to get around it, but ultimately it is up to an individual. Now when it comes down to a mother being told her little boy has "ADHD" and needs medication to stop his energy...that's where I get upset. There are other ways around the child's 'problem' without having them pop a pill.

[Zephii]

Right! I get it.

Ok, well... why do bad things happen to good people?

[jennyjellybeans]

Right! I get it.

Ok, well... why do bad things happen to good people?

Ok good. Just wanted to know we were in the clear with that.

I'm not sure I understand your question...elaborate?

[Zephii]

Well, almost all belief systems provide an answer to this question. It's a fundamental thing of comfort for people. So, how does scientology answer the question when people are upset? Why, in the scientologist belief system, do bad things happen to good people?

[Jezah]

Just don't drink the kool-aid