Concerned about finding a way to live together

[Dziubka]

It's all well and good that you don't think you can hold down a real job, but you have to figure out how to realistically support yourself. It's nice to have ideals, but oftentimes they don't pay the bills, and once you're out of your 20's, that Bohemian, hippy kinda lifestyle gets old fast, especially when you can't keep the bill collectors at bay and your whole foods turn into ramen noodles.

I think this really depends on how much money you need for what you consider a comfortable life.
I know some people well after their 20's, who live in (the European hippie-punk-self sufficient version of) trailer parks. If your "rent" is 50€ a month and you go dumpster diving and/or grow your own food, you really don't need a lot of money.
It's not a lifestyle I would ever chose for myself and I'd rather work 9-5 and have a toilet inside my living quarters, but it is definitely possible to live a lifestyle that requires a minimal amount of money without piling up bills.


I think you (the OP) have to carefully consider what you really want.
Do you want to make a lot of money first and then live off that? Malaga and Moon and had some excellent points.

Would you be ok having very little material goods? Look into the trailer places or alternative living projects.

[TwoWingedSpirit]

differentcountries: what I think you mean is that, with the scenario I described, there could be these two (very opposed) outcomes. And the outcomes you were talking about, are exactly the outcomes I compare as well. It's either going to be this or that. I feel like the ideas I've had to make money all depend on a very thin string of luck... Our patience is not infinite. If neither my SO nor me is getting anywhere in the foreseeable future, I think we would be willing to make a radical shift in our lives. At least to try what it's like to live a life similar to what you described.
For example, I know about ecovillages. The idea was appealing at first, but then my SO and I realized we wouldn't really have our own household... We asked ourselves whether it would still feel like living together. It's not only about communal work (green and practical); in a typical ecovillage you share tasks and meals with other residents, things you would usually only share with your partner / kids / family. I think the environment and lifestyle are loving and very healthy, but I'm not sure about privacy. That's something you can only really find out by living there. There is a chance we will think about it again, in the future. As for me, I would rather try that than choose to be stuck at home.

[TwoWingedSpirit]

squeeker: thank you for telling about your situation and your thoughts. It's useful to read about the steps you two take! Wow, ten years is a lot, but the way you're planning to do it sounds most secure. At least you have the advantage of living in a country with the same language as your SO's country. That's a good thing when it comes to the usefulness of a study.
Like you recommended, I've been looking for sources of information about self-sufficient and frugal living. Even just reading about (or watching) the reality gives you a 'taste' of it (and I really liked that taste so far!). I also subscribed to some useful newsletters and FB pages with tips. My SO and I have no problem with a sober lifestyle; even right now we're no big spenders at all.

[TwoWingedSpirit]

I'll be rather blunt here, your ideals are not going to make you a living. Your chances of ever owning an operating a successful business in a foreign land are slim to none without any business education backing you up. Running a business involves much more than feeling like you can do it, or just by common sense. You need to know so, so much more than that to have any chance of making it, you need to be thoroughly educated in foreign taxes, EBITA, accounting, insurance, business law, contracts, debt collection, properly drafting business plans, marketing, and a whole bunch of etc. You can't guess at this stuff, you need to take some business courses at the very least, or you will fail miserably and in a ton of debt.

It's all well and good that you don't think you can hold down a real job, but you have to figure out how to realistically support yourself. It's nice to have ideals, but oftentimes they don't pay the bills, and once you're out of your 20's, that Bohemian, hippy kinda lifestyle gets old fast, especially when you can't keep the bill collectors at bay and your whole foods turn into ramen noodles.

If you really want to start a business, start out by knowing what you're getting into, and use this time apart to get educated on the matter, even if it's just taking courses online. You will just have to be patient about closing the distance until you're done, or you most definitely will have to take a regular job.

It's OK to be a little blunt, because... Well, I drew the same conclusions (and it was confrontational). The whole situation (including the unshakeable ideality of the future) is just kind of a mess, isn't it? I guess that's also what makes me sound rather unsure about everything. I find it awkward to be in this situation, because both I and my SO want different things than we're probably 'supposed' to do--if we're really so adherent. I carry this consciousness of the harsh world that would just laugh about our idyllic idea of adult life. But it's not only a choice to work differently, I think I have to in my case. The chance of finding a job in a country where you don't speak the language fluently is so small when even your education background is vague and messy (it resembles my life history). It's not realistic to expect that an employer would want me without being able to speak perfect Italian, especially given the economic circumstances. They would much rather have Italians there, even if I learn to communicate pretty well. So, I will probably have to fix the financial part by myself... BUT... What you said about starting an own business abroad is no different, I won't deny that. I realized that only after becoming part of your environment, you can find out whether starting a business is a viable plan and if you can handle the language well enough. I've never read a story of anyone who emigrated and did something like that so soon. First I will have to find my flow...
And yes, I agree that I would also need to know more technical stuff about running a business, but I would be more concerned about my competence in what I offer. I really want to build a proper competence in whatever I'm going to do. And I will start on a small scale. To be honest, (almost all) the stories I read about people who had business success weren't stories about people who spent lots of time grasping the formal structures of a business. They rolled into it, simply because they were good at what they did and people got interested. But without their strong passion, they would never have been able to make it that far. What I learned is that it's better if you're not blinded by the goal of making money. Of course that's really hard if you want success and you see it as your only chance to make progress... But it's still something I keep in mind.

You know, if my SO had a typical full-time job and was making enough money, I wouldn't even have to think of all this. Not in the first place, I mean. Work / money would only become relevant at the time of final arrival. Not that I'm going to press him, our lifestyle philosophy is on the same wavelength...
He aims to do something related to websites, apps, design and development; something he can do on himself, without having to go to an office. It's quite a competitive area, but I hope he'll find luck, he really deserves that. Both of us can't afford to lose persistance. It's only recently that I heard him talking about this in concrete terms, but I'm already happy he has a good idea.

Every (small) business idea I had (cooking / food, ecological interior / products (store), agriculture (in the case of enough land)) depend so much on location that it made me feel lost. I wanted something I can REALLY go for without the thought of turbulence because of emigration. But I just realized I will probably have to ignore that if, let's say, I'm going to learn how to make artisanal home items (I might decide to). There is no actual reason to abstain from doing that here, I can do that at home whether I reside in the Netherlands, Italy or wherever... Learning whether it's marketable at all will take long enough. It's just something subconscious in my mind that tells me it keeps me at physical distance from my SO.
The days I kept expecting I would find a brilliant idea for a profitable website, are over. You can't know what you will think of in the future, but expecting that is too much. It's not something I should 'await'. There's only a handful people as lucky as that...

[TwoWingedSpirit]

I don't see you and your SO being able to realize your dream of living off the land without at least one of you holding down a "regular" job of at least some duration. The costs of moving, buying a new place, settling in together, utilities, supplies for self-sufficiency (not to mention skills needed for anything other than just putting a plant in the ground), maintenance of your property, etc...there's just not a way you can support all of that without some source of steady income. That's not to say you can never realize that dream, but I'm of the opinion that you make a sacrifice (working a traditional job) so that you can have the lifestyle you want. It may take a few years to build up to the point where you can start that life. Starting your own business seems way too risky a venture with so little education (regardless of the n=1 anecdotes that are surely out there) and no cushion to fall back on. Perhaps when you've finessed a marketable skill, you can reconsider that path.

Maybe instead of focusing on the "rat race" the majority of the population is engaged in, focus on bringing in an income to support your more laid-back lifestyle; you aren't working "for the man", you're working for yourself, your ideal lifestyle and ultimately your happiness.

I agree with you, it would be a lot wiser and more secure... Especially, if we create a source of income by ourselves, will it ever be seen as something serious enough to own a home? (Even if it's going to be small and rural.) We'll have to be able to count on resources that last over time, mostly when it comes to housing, as you already mentioned.
And I feel almost sorry to say this, but I don't feel like I have very much control over that. Not as much as I wish... I can't work many regular jobs in the Netherlands with my background, let alone in Italy... It's more that, than that I'm against having a job in general. The stability of a regular job with a fair income would have to come from my SO, because his degree gives him the potential. But I would never point the finger at him; his feeling about regular jobs is no more problematic than my failure with education.

You might want to say, "Then work on your education now." That won't work with the regular path anymore, and that's also why my distance study was the only option left. I've already tried so many other things... My (high) school history is excessively miserable, and that's no joke or exaggeration. There was simply too much trouble in life to handle and everything kept piling up. With so much to go through, I broke down from agony and had zero energy left to put into matters as education. But it's not my purpose to seem like a pathetic person! It's the past. Right now I'm very different and I've grown a lot. I'm already so grateful for my self-development, because I didn't expect it...
It's just tough to focus on things in the here and now. My life at home is rather monotonous and I have to spend large parts of the day on myself. I just can't keep myself together if a good future together means staying here to study another bunch of years. My environment is not in balance and that affects me. When I'm with my SO, everything feels a thousand times lighter; I feel I could do anything during a day to sustain our lives. It goes beyond the butterflies and infatuation of the beginning, because I'm also rational about our relationship.

Sorry if I just started to become a moaner, I only meant to clear things up.

[rhabdoviridae]

It sounds as though you may have not learned how to study properly, organize your thoughts or learn efficiently (and I say that as someone who struggled in my college courses and had to change my approach in order to succeed). I know many US universities offer study counseling to help students "learn to learn" in ways that are best suited to them.

There's plenty of other education-based advice I might offer, but it sounds as though you aren't feeling too confident in that path just yet. Hopefully your distance courses can help you continue to gain confidence in yourself and your abilities as a student. However, like you mentioned, it will take quite a while to get through a Bachelors degree one course at a time.

In the meantime, I would look for opportunities that don't require a degree. You may consider getting into a local farmer's group (which has the added benefit of teaching you about things you'll use when you accomplish your lifestyle goal), crafts, or even restaurant work just to pay the bills. As much as I hate to say it, no one can be 100% certain their SO will be around for as long as they expect and it's important that you can support yourself if for some reason your SO is unable to contribute as you'd expected.

[TwoWingedSpirit]

It has been a month since I created this topic, and I must say, things have changed! In direction, at least. I keep wondering, what if I never decided to write it off me on this forum? Well, something tells me it wouldn't have been so clear in my mind... After having started this topic and reading all of your honest and valuable responses, my mind started scanning every option. My consciousness altered. Soon I came to realize how picky I actually am! (How picky we are. It's in fact the same for my SO.) The both of us have initial resistance, and you really could say that our current situation is designed to keep us stuck in a rut. Especially if you consider our character. Due to our backgrounds, we can't directly reach out to help each other. I already dreaded we had to come up with an ingenious, unheard-of plan and daunting work to turn our desired life into reality... It has to be a very straightforward plan we come up with, because we already reject so much, both in our own way. And there were so many reasons. Lack of accredited education (my case), stubbornness / character... OK, this sounds nebulous. :P

Anyway... As for me, I thought of a plan that best suits my needs. I have always been interested in websites, both what they look like and how they work (not that I advocate gender stereotypes, but that interest is what I refer to as my 'male side'). However, I never had the chance to learn enough about it to become a so-called 'pro'. I only had (have) basic knowledge, and in order to achieve progress, I would need to dedicate all of my time to it for quite a while! And... I couldn't do that before... Not as easily as now. Another thing that averted me was the competition. I know that it's not realistic to expect to make a living off freelance web designing. Not that alone, at least. Only some of the bigger businesses in that field have that much success. And it's much harder now than say six years ago... The web has changed. Hmm, enough rant!
What I really decided is to develop WordPress themes and sell them via an online market. I've done my research, and at least, that has some realistic perspective. For those of you who don't know WordPress, it's a content management system for website owners. Anyway, my goal means lots and lots of reading and experimenting for now. But... I feel a deep relief inside. Finally I have more clarity in my life. Sure it will take time and patience to reach a significant milestone (that is: earning enough money to plan a living). But I can also say it's something I actually enjoy doing. I like to spend my time this way and that's what gives me so much hope. This is not someting I'm going to give up anytime soon. I also think I planned it wisely, because there aren't too many other tasks and duties that can distract me. Somehow my mindset has really changed... As it seems, I now accept that it's going to take time to pick the fruits.

I'm maybe a little more worried about my SO. Worried, because he doesn't seem to have a clear picture of his future occupation. He can specify what he has been thinking of, but I really don't know about the execution. The things he mentions also vary per time... They vary, because they didn't bring him what he expected, or he couldn't keep it up. Sometimes I'm afraid he cannot support himself when it comes to this... It seems like lingering to me (and I know that all too well myself!). If one day I would earn enough money to maintain the both of us, I would do it with all my heart. But I don't think that would be in the best interest of our lifestyle... It would bring so many insecurities. So I really hope something concrete and sustainable is out there for him. I would never want to see him struggle with work, that would pain me too much. But the problem is that opportunities won't travel to him; he has to create his own fate in a constructive way. I really hope that his indecisiveness won't continue to predominate. He is sweet, loveable, I couldn't be happier with him as a person. There is more potential deep down there... But what counts for making a living is what you actually put out there. It's the hard truth. Especially for him, it's hard to realize that.

[silvermoonfairy3]

That's great that you've found ways to have a more solid plan. Good work!

I'm not sure what the web-designer life is like where you live, but it's absolutely possible to be a freelance web designer here and live off it. I know half a dozen designers, and only one does it full-time for a company.. the others all do it freelance and have multiple clients adding up to full-time freelance. It does take a bit of work and effort to build and maintain client bases, of course.

But yeah.. that's great that you're working toward something, and I hope things work out for your SO, too.

[TwoWingedSpirit]

Thank you!
Well, that's a positive thing to hear! And I must say, I've seen it as well where I live. I don't count on it too soon, but it's definitely encouraging.

[Zephii]

I'm not really convinced you're going to get far without some conventional work. Even if you both just work part time in a stable job. Key word being stable. Not to be a Debbie downer.

I do understand where you are coming from, first off. I personally have never held down a full time job. I've worked full-time hours in short bursts, but I've never had a job that had that kind of work load stretching before me into eternity. And ideally, I never want to. I'm not interested in that way of life and I do as much as I can in other areas to be sure I don't have to, but I still need a conventional job to fall back on. I'm a checkout chick. I'm an aspiring author but haven't made it yet and I do a tiny amount of online journalism that makes about enough money per month to cover my phone bill. I also fill in surveys online to make a little money when I can find the time. But, though I only work my supermarket job 5-15 hours a week, the security of having it there is crucial. Why? Because it's easier to get more hours in an existing job than it is to find a job in the first place, and sometimes bad shit happens and you need step up and earn that money.

My SO is similar to yours in the way that he doesn't have a steady job. He wants full time work, but in his industry 98% of the jobs available are contracts, so he does spend large chunks of time unemployed. Which is why I need to have some earning power, so I can take that roll when need be. That kind of job might be up your SO's alley though. Working full-time for a few months, and then having a few months off. You need a well-paid career though, low living expenses, and you need to be fantastic at managing your savings. Anyway, maybe that's an option?

There are a lot of skills you will both need if you're going to even try not to live in the rat race. It's all good and fine to say you will grow your own food, but that isn't as easy as you might think. Our garden this year cost us more than we saved on what we grew. (I'm still trying to master it). Some things I make to keep our family healthy and save money are: yogurt, jam, peanut butter & almond milk. I'm trying to pick up bread making (but I think I just have to get a machine because the time and effort bread takes means it isn't cost-effective.) and cheese making. I still have a long way to go...

And that was another point I wanted to make. You seem to expect to live the life you desire straight out of home, but it doesn't work like that. For most things you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. I too aspire one day to live a fully environmentally sustainable lifestyle, but right now it's not an option, it's a goal and I take little steps towards it every day.

For your housing dilemma I have a suggestion - look into building an "Earthship". Google that shit. It sounds right up your alley. Now, seeming you have not figured out where to live, you could find a place where it's legal to build one of these homes and go from there. Because it isn't legal everywhere, and you want to know for sure your plans will be legally approved before you hand any money over.

You're very lucky in one way - your partner is into the things you are. Mine isn't. He is strongly resisting my desire to have an earthship and his job forces us to live in the city because it doesn't exist in the country. On the other hand, I'm lucky because he's willing to work full time for the rest of our lives so that I can live my hippie dreams.

Anyway sorry for the ramble. I'd blame sleep deprivation, but I've always been this bad lol

[Zephii]

One other thing I just thought of - retirement. Plan for that shit. Start now if you're never planning to earn a large amount of money, because one day you're going to be too old to work the land. One day you may not be physically able to churn your own butter, spend hours in the kitchen preserving food for the winter or too riddled with arthritis to make your own clothes. While it's nice to believe our kids will take care of us, there's no guarantee of that and pensions are often not good enough to live off. (And morally you're probably a bit of an arsehole if you've lived your whole live not paying taxes because you don't earn enough and then you get old and want to live off other people's taxes ) So yeah, probably have some dialog between you about this stuff, even though you probably think it's too far away for it to matter. Trust me, it's not.

[Moon]

Damn Zeph, that was absolutely excellent. Well thought and well said

[Iaria]

popping too offer advice as a person in the web development field ^__^
I'm a 4-year degreed web application developer, who works for a corporation, but have done a few charity projects outside of my work. (soo... freelance for free? lol)

The things that are hot topics that everyone wants right now are
1) responsive design (going between computers, tablets, phones, etc seamlessly)
2) custom design (no one wants templates anymore, they want stuff custom built for them)
3) SEO (search engine optimization) and Social Networking support. (you can't just have a website and be successful anymore, you need to optimize it to be at the top of google(and other various search engines) and you have to be able to network your way through the various social networking sites, and the site must work with the social networking [auto publishing updates to facebook, etc])
4) Interactivity (this is usually in the form of user comments, discussion boards(like this), mailing lists, rss feeds, etc.)
5) graphics, pictures, and all things pretty (with most freelance work, you're also going to be expected to offer redesigned logos, new graphics, photo editing, etc to help build content for the website, so make sure you have the equipment and capability)
6) Hosting. Most people that are going to be looking for a freelancer are also going to want hosting. Your best option would be to find yourself a decent web host to host your personal site on and then continue to host your client sites on there as well, and then charge them a small fee for said hosting. (I host at dreamhost and it costs me about 120-150$ annually - though my first year was about 30$ with promotional)
7) buzzwords. SEO, Bootsrap, modular design, responsive design, html5, css3, Sass, jquery, widgets, cross browser compatibility - do you know what all of these are? these are massive buzzwords and what a lot of people want in web design currently, and realize that you will be diving headfirst into a world of people who are masters at all of this. What are YOU going to be able to offer that is better than all the rest?

it is entirely possible to be a successful freelancer, but your skill list, client list, and portfolio is what's going to get you there. So it's definitely not going to be an easy path.
Designing templates to sell probably is not going to be the route you want to go, as templates are now a dated thing that no one really craves anymore (or if they do, they go find one for free - because, honestly, they're everywhere)

What I would suggest offering, in kind of a template-y way, is a tool kit. Offer different bits and pieces that people can put together and create packages that you will custom build for them) Have a bunch of home page designs, a bunch of blog designs, a bunch of gallery designs. And then litle add ons like logo design, photo editing, different packages of graphics, offers of social networking integration, etc.
And then let your clients pick and chose what the want and get that satisfaction of having something custom.
Then prepare to work hand in hand with your client the entire process and listen to them as they request things, but also be confident enough in your skills to make sure you don't promise them things that are not possible (either with the "package" they chose, or just not feasible in your abilities) one of the worst places you can get yourself in is promising something you can't deliver.

[silvermoonfairy3]

Also this, just because still funny and unfortunately true of freelancing sometimes..

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell

[Iaria]

Also this, just because still funny and unfortunately true of freelancing sometimes..]

oh! and on that note ~ clientsfromhell (google it )
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