School and motivation

[Tanja]

My daughter's been having difficulties in school since she went to first grade at the age of 7. It's not because she can't do things but its her attitude. And it's getting worse when she's growing up.

I've tried bribing her, threatening her, blackmailing her (all the usual parenting tools ) and nothing seems to work. She has this attitude that school is not important and I don't have any idea how to cinvince her otherwise. She just won't listen.

I've promised her that if her mid-term papers are good I'll reward her somehow. Like this spring I promised that each grade that goes up from the previous degree I'll give her a tenner and if she does really well she can have a new phone if she deserves it. So 2 grades went up, great. But 4 went down. I gave her 20€ for the two grades but said that she doesn't deserve the phone yet cause she could've done better with the other 4.

More annoyingly, she's not stupid! Her teacher's told me several times that in certain subjects she's ahead of her class (and she's almost a year younger than some in her class since she's born in December 2000 and others are born much earlier the same year). I know she could do so well and have such a good degree. But if she's not bothered about it there's nothing I can do

Any advice? How do you motivate your kids to do well in school? How can I make her understand that it IS important?

[lucybelle]

How old is she? Does she help you with physical labor around the house much? My one thing to suggest would be to put her in some physical labor job or camp for kids or something. I've heard this work multiple times. Kids hate school, then see what life would be like without a degree, then decide to work harder in school. Try one of these things? I worked at a place called Rocky Mountain Youth Corps in CO. I was a mentor for a group of 16-18 year old "bad kids" who were forced to go there by their parents. The kids get paid and they get food and do manual labor in the woods. We camp and only went into town once a week to shower, wash clothes and stock up on food. At first, the kids were really annoyed to be there, but after a few days they all loved it. I think it definitely improved some of their lives.

And then there's the other thing- I was a lazy f*&^ in school. Right up until college. My grades were always just mediocre. C's and B's and a couple D's. I remember my teacher telling me "if only you would do your homework, you would have straight As!" But I just didn't care, at all. At the same time, I had a really good work ethic. At 15 I had a job, and by 16 I was working almost every day of the week during the school year. I ended up getting almost my entire college years paid for because I put in the work to get scholarships (even though my grades weren't the greatest). My mom never bribed me to get my grades up. She was just like "well if you want to go to college you better have decent grades since I can't pay the tuition!"

I feel like I'm rambling. My point is a kid who has a lackadaisical attitude towards school can turn out okay. Try what you can, but in the end it's up to them to find the importance. I tell my lazy kids sometimes "I hated school too, but I figured out a way to get over that and succeed in life" And that's what it's really about. (hope I helped at least a little!!! )

[Tanja]

I remember my teacher telling me "if only you would do your homework, you would have straight As!"

This! Her teacher says the same thing. She's really good at anything she puts her mind to but she just won't do her homework and she keeps forgetting to bring her books with her and tell me if they have an exam coming up so that I could push her to revise for it. And yes, she does things around the house (much more now that Andy left cause I can't do everything on my own *rolleyes*), she feeds the dogs, takes them out, does the dishes, helps me with cleaning and laundry and she loves to cook with me. And she usually does all those without complaining too.

Oh and she's 11. She wants to be a "big" girl but still acts like a baby sometimes

[mllebamako]

Is it an issue of homework or of the work she is doing in class?

If it's a homework issue, does she have a time at home where she is required to be working on school work? Do you always check her homework? I know it can be annoying to police her when she's smart enough to be doing it herself but when I was a kid, I had really structured homework time. 2 hours every night my brother and I had to be in our rooms, at our desks, doing homework or reading a book. Maybe you could try implementing something like that?

And if she's not telling you about upcoming exams or what homework is due, then you could communicate with her teacher and do a sort of chart thing, where the teacher fills the chart in with h/w issued and upcoming exams and she signs it and then you sign it. Yes, it would be treating her like a young child, but it might also show her that if he cannot be responsible enough to do it on her own, than she has to deal with being treated like that.

And it's hard for a lot of kids to see why school is important at that age. I know a lot of my students don't give a crap. So sometimes you just have to force them to do it and they'll thank you later!

[LeilaniJoi]

Sounds like one of my daughters. And at 11 it's hard because college is an idea that is far away and not something immediate. Is she involved in anything extracurricular that would give her some motivation? Something that demands good grades to participate? I know in a lot of schools in the states if they don't maintain a certain grade average they can't participate in things like band or sports. Now she is aiming towards a band scholarship for college to help pay the way through.

My youngest daughter didn't get serious about her grades until she was 16 and we moved to Texas. The schools here are fabulous but what got her going was band. She got involved in band and has to maintain a certain grade point to be able to participate in trips and contests with the band. The turnaround in her in the last year is phenomenal.

My oldest daughter however, probably should have been tested and treated for ADHD. It didn't matter one bit how many bribes or punishment she got, she simply was not going to do the schoolwork. I even tried homeschooling her but it turned into me having to literally stand over her while she did her work. It was a constant battle. This was back during a time when ADHD was just starting to be recognized and acknowledged and there was almost no testing or treatment for it. We never did get her straightened out about schoolwork and even though she went on to college, she only lasted about 1 semester before she dropped out completely.

Sometimes as well they just have to grow into it. It's been proven (but don't ask me to link it lol) that kids before age 16 or 17 simply don't have the cognitive reasoning to conceptualize a future and what it takes to get there. They can think of college, but understanding "if I do this... I will get this" is a concept that some struggle with. They want to do things, but being able to see a clear path to that point is more than they, at that age, can visualize and plan out. That's were parents come in and have to set the boundaries, but I'll be honest.. after what I went through with my oldest I don't envy you that position one bit. It's a fight, but well worth it.

[Tanja]

If it's a homework issue, does she have a time at home where she is required to be working on school work? Do you always check her homework?

And if she's not telling you about upcoming exams or what homework is due, then you could communicate with her teacher and do a sort of chart thing, where the teacher fills the chart in with h/w issued and upcoming exams and she signs it and then you sign it. Yes, it would be treating her like a young child, but it might also show her that if he cannot be responsible enough to do it on her own, than she has to deal with being treated like that.

Yes it's a homework issue. And yes I always check and yes, we have a system (it only started about a month ago right before the school finished) where her teacher will write down all the homework and make sure she's got all the books and signs a notebook and then at home I make sure she's done everything and has all the books for the next day and then I sign it. It started off ok but whenever there was a time when her teacher wasn't in the classroom right at the end of the lesson she came home without having the notebook signed. It's like she needs constant reminding and watching over to do things. It's very tiring, especially since it's been going on for about 4 years now.

I'm hoping the notebook thing will keep her going when schools start again, technically there isn't any other choice really! I just wish she would have the will to do well too. The more me and the teachers push her the more stubborn she gets. Sometimes we've sat at a table for 2 hours doing homework that she could've done in 10 minutes. I feel so frustrated

Sounds like one of my daughters. And at 11 it's hard because college is an idea that is far away and not something immediate. Is she involved in anything extracurricular that would give her some motivation? Something that demands good grades to participate? I know in a lot of schools in the states if they don't maintain a certain grade average they can't participate in things like band or sports. Now she is aiming towards a band scholarship for college to help pay the way through.

My youngest daughter didn't get serious about her grades until she was 16 and we moved to Texas. The schools here are fabulous but what got her going was band. She got involved in band and has to maintain a certain grade point to be able to participate in trips and contests with the band. The turnaround in her in the last year is phenomenal.

We don't have anything like that here. Her school is a very tiny village school with only about 60 students in total. She's not going to high school until in 2014. The school system here is very different to the States or even Britain

I guess she'll just figure it out one day when she's old enough to really think about her future. I just have to have LOADS of patience until then!

I've been thinking when I was a kid, when my parents told me to do something I did it cause I was afraid of my dad and if I disobeyed he would flick me. But now if you dare to flick a child they'll report you to a police! It's ridiculous. If you go back 50 years there wasn't any school shootings or bullying, there were kids who respected their parents and did their share. In my opinion some kids could do with a little spanking to remind them how easy they're getting off

[Haley53]

My oldest daughter however, probably should have been tested and treated for ADHD. It didn't matter one bit how many bribes or punishment she got, she simply was not going to do the schoolwork. I even tried homeschooling her but it turned into me having to literally stand over her while she did her work. It was a constant battle. This was back during a time when ADHD was just starting to be recognized and acknowledged and there was almost no testing or treatment for it. We never did get her straightened out about schoolwork and even though she went on to college, she only lasted about 1 semester before she dropped out completely.

I actually thought of this while reading it. I realise this is in the "with children" section, and I don't have children, but I do work as a tutor and life coach for children and teens with learning differences in addition to children and teens who have been diagnosed with ADHD, asperger's, and high-functioning autism as well.

I have a student with ADHD who sounds much like your daughter. She is an extremely bright girl, ahead of her peers, and you can tell how bright she is simply by having a conversation with her, but it is extremely hard to motivate her to do homework and tasks that would take the average student maybe an hour max to complete can take her up to two or more. She is currently going into her senior year of high school, but I worked with her when she was around 11 as well, and working with her was like pulling teeth. I actually dreaded reconnecting with the family when they, once again, wanted my services, simply because I remembered how little we accomplished in the hour she was here. A math assignment of only around 30-40 problems... We could accomplish about half that in an hour if we were lucky, simply because she was struggling with depression and undiagnosed ADHD. Keeping her focused was difficult, and because it was difficult for her to focus and get it done, I often copped attitude due to her self-esteem.

The unfortunate thing is when students have something like ADHD or learning differences that make it difficult to do it society's way, it often results in low self-esteem, symptoms of depression, turbulent emotions that make it really difficult to be pleasant all the time. Yes, it's easy to say "if you sat down and did your homework, you could get straight As and be on the honour roll," but in the end, for the students themselves, it's not that easy. Even something as simple as focusing on a task for 15 minutes can sometimes be difficult, simply because their minds are whirring the hell around. It can also be a matter of boredom. Yes, you can get As if you do your homework, but when it's boring and easy work... Well, Einstein didn't flunk and repeat grades for nothing.

Two of the students that I work with have ADHD (one has Asperger's, as well) and both are a junior and senior in high school, and both require serious hand holding. I think sometimes ADHD is something that's easier misdiagnosed or that slips under the radar in girls because it manifests so differently than boys, and because girls don't often tend to exhibit the same disruptive, whirlwind pattern of activity that boys do, it can often be missed at the ages where children are expected to be taken and led by the hand. It often doesn't become apparent until almost puberty-age, where children are expected to start taking steps towards becoming more academically independent and have a hard time making that work for them. Perhaps you could consider doing some research into ADHD? It's a hard thing for me to suggest, simply because I do feel that it's over-diagnosed, but I also know that she sounds a lot like my student who was not, at the time, diagnosed with ADHD. When she was, that opened up for her to have accomodations and truly receive the support that she needed to be academically successful, which is a good thing to get in place (the earlier the better), simply because it's honestly a support that will be needed at a college level, as well.

And it could be very well be her hitting puberty early or her being an 11-year-old and copping an attitude. I'm not necessarily saying there's anything she needs to or could be diagnosed with. I simply think it's worth looking into, but that's because I know one of my students, who I've worked with since your daughter's age, has followed very similar patterns.

ETA: The other thing too is that the school system is not for everyone. I often find school systems very generic and not always willing to work with people who simply learn differently, even if they don't receive a textbook diagnosis. But in the end, she may very well be trying, but because she's still failing, that's really going to do damage to her self-esteem. I see a lot with incredibly bright students, simply because it can be hard to fit into the box that they try to push students into. :/

^ Point of this being there's some flexibility in the case of accomodations, which can be helpful to the child.

[lucybelle]

I actually thought of this while reading it. I realise this is in the "with children" section, and I don't have children, but I do work as a tutor and life coach for children and teens with learning differences in addition to children and teens who have been diagnosed with ADHD, asperger's, and high-functioning autism as well.

I'm in no way qualified to make these sort of decisions, but I feel people are way too quick to jump to "my child has ___ issues". Everyone has issues. I definitely have ADD and dyslexia to a degree, but I don't use it as a crutch to make people coddle me. I think the only time when learning disabilities should be addressed is when it is severe. I have a kid right now who is the most ADD child I have ever seen in my entire life. She was eating BUGS the other day. She's in 7th grade. Those are the types of kids who need special treatment, and you know what? She gets none. Her mother wants her in normal classes, with normal kids, getting the grades she deserves for the work she does. Because once she graduates, no one is going to hold her hand and give her an easier task because she's ADD. Some days are good, some days are awful and it's incredibly frustrating to work with her. But I respect her mother's wishes and I do the best I can.

I just feel like you could take any normal, active, fun-loving kid, have them tested for dyslexia or ADHD or any other amount of learning disorders and they will be found to have them. I mean, duh. Who likes sitting in a classroom for 90 minutes being talked at about something you don't care about? No one.

No offense to Tanja's beautiful daughter (love love love), but maybe she's just lazy? I already admitted to being super lazy when I was in school. Give her time. Like Tanja said, she wants to be an adult, but is still just a baby.

[snow_girl]

No offense to Tanja's beautiful daughter (love love love), but maybe she's just lazy? I already admitted to being super lazy when I was in school. Give her time. Like Tanja said, she wants to be an adult, but is still just a baby.

I didn't read all the replies. My mom had to drag me kicking and screaming for the first couple years to school. I hated it but I didn't know why. I stopped putting up a fight but I hated homework and if I could get away with not doing it I would. In high school I completely stopped doing homework al together. I still passed all my classes I just really really hated school and no amount of bribery would make me do it.
All my friends are graduating uni now and I do kind of feel bad that I never went, but it just wasn't my thing. I don't know what Im going to do with my life yet but I am certain that not getting a degree (yet anyway) isn't the end of all end.

[Haley53]

I'm in no way qualified to make these sort of decisions, but I feel people are way too quick to jump to "my child has ___ issues". Everyone has issues. I definitely have ADD and dyslexia to a degree, but I don't use it as a crutch to make people coddle me. I think the only time when learning disabilities should be addressed is when it is severe. I have a kid right now who is the most ADD child I have ever seen in my entire life. She was eating BUGS the other day. She's in 7th grade. Those are the types of kids who need special treatment, and you know what? She gets none. Her mother wants her in normal classes, with normal kids, getting the grades she deserves for the work she does. Because once she graduates, no one is going to hold her hand and give her an easier task because she's ADD. Some days are good, some days are awful and it's incredibly frustrating to work with her. But I respect her mother's wishes and I do the best I can.

I just feel like you could take any normal, active, fun-loving kid, have them tested for dyslexia or ADHD or any other amount of learning disorders and they will be found to have them. I mean, duh. Who likes sitting in a classroom for 90 minutes being talked at about something you don't care about? No one.

No offense to Tanja's beautiful daughter (love love love), but maybe she's just lazy? I already admitted to being super lazy when I was in school. Give her time. Like Tanja said, she wants to be an adult, but is still just a baby.

As someone who struggles with certain types of learning and learning situations and who gets (and got) through school without a diagnosis, I can agree that everyone has differences and "issues." I can also agree that ADHD is overdiagnosed. But while I can say that there's both a deficiency in the education and diagnosistic systems, I can also say that the students I have worked with have struggled significantly with their learning differences and disorders, both in school and in their day-to-day. They were not simply behavioural problems, and they were not parents that needed an answer so stuck their kid with the first psychiatrist to make some shot in the dark.

I did not say that Tanya's daughter had ADHD. I said that there was a possibility of it. I said it's also possible that it's simply behavioural problems and her 11-year-old being an early teenager. However, ADHD is not something that is frivolously diagnosed in women like it is in boys - I believe it's more commonly misdiagnosed in boys - so if some form of testing or discussion of it is available, it might be worth looking into. The fact that her daughter is bright, hard-working when it comes to chores, but simply can't stay focused on schoolwork, has difficulty completing menial tasks without someone reminding her, etc. is not enough to make an ADHD diagnosis and not enough to get her one, but it all sounds similar to what I went through with one of my students when she was younger, so I suggested it.

Nothing in life is ever going to be spoonfed to you once you get out in the real world, but there are resources for people who need it. Both my students who have ADHD have parents who took different approaches in terms of support and both procure very, very different results. It does not mean the one who does not do well in school is lazy, but without her parents enforcing a needed structure (for which there are also higher education options, at least here in the U.S.), not making sure she shows up here on time, etc., she simply gets lost. With my other student with ADHD, we work on her focus, we work on getting tasks done, we work on management, and so we get her through the school year and she does well. She's not lazy either. She simply does not get anything done on her own time, in part because of depression but also because it's too hard for her to sit and get one thing done. The thing at least with a diagnosis is that you get slightly more support from a school system that already doesn't understand that educational differences exist to begin with. Sometimes that support can do a world's worth of good. Sometimes it doesn't.

I simply felt attacked for making a suggestion when I'm not trying to pathologise normal behaviour. :/ Like I said in my post, it could be a behavioural problem and that's that, but it could also be what it was for one of my students. The worst that happens is it's looked into and doesn't match her daughter at all or whomever she speaks with says that's not what's going on. I can't even say for certainty that it sounds like ADHD, simply that sometimes there's more than "laziness" going on and sometimes it's more severe and does not always manifest as "eating bugs."

ETA: And I do try and say this with all due respect. It's a touchy issue for me simply because I see what my students get called, "lazy" being one of them, by teachers who figure out that they stand out from the cookie cutter mould (there was one student that one of the teachers wanted to stand in front of the class and introduce as "different" so all the other students had to make a special effort to be nice to him because he was the "different" one). I do definitely agree that there is a discrepancy, and that some parents do use diagnoses as an excuse for their child's poor behaviour, but I also understand that these things exist and with such a structured school system, sometimes a diagnosis is the way to getting out of it. Even in college, to get time and a half or to be able to be tested separately, you have to have been tested and diagnosed, otherwise you're tested the same as everyone else, and while some people can adapt to it, others can't. I don't doubt that it could be a behavioural problem, but it's also better safe than sorry.

I also want to add to Tanja, have you ever thought about hiring a tutor? I know my students are sometimes more receptive to me because I'm not "mom" and I'm close enough in age that I'm a peer while still being an authority, and for some of my kids, it's cool being buddies with the college-aged tutor. Again, it's not something that works for everyone, but a tutor can be a cheap alternative and does not require testing, if homework is the only problem she's really facing, and it's possible she'd respond better seeing as the tutor would be "hers" and young but authoritative at the same time. She might be at an age where she's starting to separate, so someone who can still be a role model but also still direct a situation could be helpful.

[Tanja]

Thank you everyone, I've read all the replies but haven't had time to reply myself yet (cause it'll be long lol). I will soon though!

[Zephii]

The main thing I'm thinking is maybe it's not challenging enough for her? Maybe it's simply boring/too easy?
What does she say when you ask her why she doesn't work as hard as you know she could?

[Tanja]

Eclaire: I was the first person to suggest ADHD or something similar. I asked her teachers and her social worker (she's having meetings with a curator because she's been through so much shit these past couple of years) and they said they don't think she has anything. But I did take her to do some tests to see if they would find anything.

She was diagnosed as a slow learner, simply meaning that she didn't have automated learning skills like kids usually do (like learning the time tables by heart ect), she really struggled to remember the methods that would help her learn and the psychologist said that she's very smart but she needs a lot of support and time to learn the same things that her class mates do. Her teacher was AMAZING about it and she swapped the whole class' math books to different ones that have easier tasks in it and she stayed twice a week after school to have a private lesson with just my daughter in addition to getting a special tutor to help her with maths. Because the school is so small they spot everything really quickly and do something about it. If she would've been in a big school I'm pretty sure this whole learning thing would've been ingored and she would struggle a 100 times more than she does now.

When Andy was here to help her and him being a mathematics genious he knew exactly how to explain things so that she understood them. I can't help her cause I'm so crappy at maths myself! It just confuses her more if I try to budge in and explain how things were done when I was a kid. Everything's completely different now and there's things in her books that didn't exist when I was her age.

Also, it's not like she can't concentrate on things. When she's doing something she likes she takes forever to do it right. When she puts her heart into it she can do anything and she can do it well. That's the reason I'm so frustrated with her, because I KNOW how smart she is but it's just the attitude. Whatever I ask her to do the first answer is always no.

Yes, there is a big chance she's just lazy.

Zephii: The first response I usually get when we're doing her homework is "it's too difficult, I can't do it". And then 5 minutes later she can do it just fine so I'm not sure what's that about. She does have a very low self-esteem, she seems to think she's never good enough and that she can't do anything right. I don't know where it's come from since I've only ever been supportive of everything she's tried and if she's failed something I've told her that it's ok, that's how you learn things. You try, fail, try again and succeed. But she's such a perfectionist. When she was 5 and started to learn how to ride a bike (she had never ridden a bike before) she sat on the saddle, started pedaling and when she fell she threw the bike in a bush and stormed away. It's completely beyond me where she gets that attitude since I've never told her she's not good enough. Gosh, my life is full of mistakes and I've told her about them! I've told her how much I've screwed up but haven't given up and I've learned from my experiences. I've yold her that you can't be perfect at things you've never ever done before, that you have to learn them, But it doesn't seem to help.

Anyway, the reason I started this thread was to get some advice from people who might've been through this and who could tell me if there's something I'm not doing right. Cause tbh, it does start to feel like maybe I'm the reason she's like this. I've raised her the way I've thought is right but what if it's been completely wrong? I want her to do well in life, not struggle like I have/do. I want her to do things that make her happy. But how do I get her to understand that education plays a HUGE part in that? Or do I just have to wait until she realises this herself?

[lucybelle]

Tanja, it seems like you're doing all the right things. There's no perfect way to raise a child and every parent makes mistakes. A lot of my kids say "this homework is too hard I can't do it" so my answer is "okay, re write your notes and write why you don't understand". This is what the math teacher does as well. See if her teacher would be okay with her doing that. If she can't do the HW, and you can't help, she needs to re write the notes and say why she doesn't understand. That way, even though she's not doing homework, she's still reviewing.

Keep doing what you're doing, encourage her, root her on, offer rewards, etc. But, she probably needs her own time to realize school is important. Again, I didn't care about school until my last couple years of high school when I realized I needed at least decent grades to get scholarships. I don't know how Finland works, but my mom told me early on she couldn't pay for my college. She said if I wanted to go (and yes, it was a choice), that I'd have to find a way myself- of course that starts with grades.

[Haley53]

Honestly, though I don't have much more to add, it sounds like you've done everything right, and that a parent should be doing, to me.