Paris and Amsterdam

[snow_girl]

My Parents and Sister are coming to visit me for about two weeks in July!!! I want to get the most out of their time here so they will spend a few days in London before we do some traveling. I figure that Paris and Amsterdam are the closest and easiest to get to (and I also haven't spent too much time at either)

I'm wondering how many days would be ideal to spend at each and what there is to see around each. What else is there to see in Northern France? When I went to Amsterdam I spent a could hours in Den Hagg but I remember reading about some other places worth seeing in The Netherlands.

Also I am assuming trains are the best way to get around. I was looking at buses but I don't think the old folks can handle the roughing it me and my sister could to save some money. It will be weird not to stay in a hostel, is it unusual to find a hotel room for 4 adults? I remember when I was in Germany they weren't very common, but maybe it was just in the places we stayed.

I know there are a couple people from or have SOs in the areas we are going, so I hope you can maybe share some off beat things to do or anything else that might be helpful

[Rach321]

That sounds like a great plan! I haven't been to Amsterdam, but I've been to Paris several times.

Depending on what you like to do, just staying in Paris itself could take anywhere from 3 to 7 days. If you like art (and even if you don't) you can spend an entire day at the Louvre. Just walking the city and seeing what you can find is fun. On my last visit, I was there for 7 days by myself. I did a lot of walking tours because I'd already seen the major sites several times (Eiffel Tower, Notre Dame, etc.). I still had things I wanted to do at the end of it!

It's not hard to find a hotel for 4 adults in Paris, at least I don't think so. When I was living in France, my mom and two adult brothers came to visit, and we travelled around France, Spain, and Italy without a problem in finding lodging.

One of my favorite spots in France is Mt St Michel, which is in the North. It might not be too difficult to get there from London, and I highly recommend it.

I'll come back to the thread as I think of other things to do.

Trains are the best way to get around. Busses are not bad, either, but trains are more comfortable for sure.

[kittyo9]

Both places require several days to really see everything you'd want to see. Amsterdam has a lot of great museums and historical sites that I found very interesting. I'd suggest looking them up and choosing some that you think your family would like-- they can be tricky to find, but you'll see so much on your way there! When I went there, my friend and I really only got to spend 2 hours just walking around and looking at things, but in the time I was there, I took some excellent photos and saw all sorts of parts of town, including the Chinatown in Amsterdam and a bit of the red light district. You could rent bikes there if you wanted and bike around with your family. Just be careful if you decide to walk-- the bike traffic is incredible!! And the trams don't like to stop for anything, either...

For Paris, I've only been very briefly, but from some of my friends who went for a weekend, they said they barely were able to see half of what they wanted to see. So I'd recommend like 4-5 days+ in Paris itself, and at least 3 in Amsterdam.

I really enjoyed my train rides-- even the long ones to Amsterdam and back from Luxembourg. I think it would be the best way for you to go as well.

[Tooki]

I was in Paris for 3 days, and it wasn't enough. I think 5 would be about right. It's a VERY dense city that is for sure.

The obvious tourists destinations are fun but my best memories were the places in between. Take the time to explore the city and eat up the Frenchyness. If you are game, just walk around on your own. I sat in the hotel, picked places where we wanted to go and just went there.

(I LOVE exploring new places without a map)

[snow_girl]

Thanks for the advice so far. Just thought of one more question. I've heard from more then a couple people that the french aren't fond of english speaking people. When I went the first time was with my fluent speaking french friend so I left all the talking up to her. But I'm slightly concerned this time that I might have a hard time only knowing cereal box french. I'm not worried about not knowing the language anywhere else, just is France. Is what they say true or will I be okay?

[elina]

I don't have any experience in either cities so I'm not much use (sorry D: ), but I just came to say that I've heard the same thing you have. From my experience, the French do like to speak French more than anything else, and want to avoid speaking English. I've met a few people from France here in Finland and they've tried to speak to me in French, even though I said I don't understand a word

Aaaand obviously I'm not saying that all French people are the same, just what I've heard

I'd think you should be ok though, some of them must want to serve you in English as well, surely..?

[Rach321]

I speak French, but when I was in Paris, most people spoke English to me if they knew it. They liked the opportunity to practice their English. The key is really to show at least some effort.

Try to practice a few key phrases, "Bonjour" "Je voudrais.... (I would like...), Merci, S'il vous plait, numbers through 10, etc. If you start out a conversation in French and are able to explain that you don't speak French well in French, most people open up quite quickly. This is a good way to do it: "Bonjour, je suis désolée, je ne parle pas français, est-ce que vous parlez anglais?" (Hi, I'm sorry, I don't speak French, do you speak English?)

I honestly never had a problem, even when my French skills weren't so good. Have a great trip!

[Tooki]

I've had an experience similar to Elina. I found that the French people I encountered in Paris spoke down to me a bit because I didn't know French. And I have heard from French people outside of Paris that Parisians think they are all that (which is natural in most countries, it's like that in Australia with people from Sydney).

I know the French are proud of being French, and their is the anti-British sentiment. But alas, enjoy your time! It's a nice, albeit dirty city.

[lucybelle]

Thanks for the advice so far. Just thought of one more question. I've heard from more then a couple people that the french aren't fond of english speaking people. When I went the first time was with my fluent speaking french friend so I left all the talking up to her. But I'm slightly concerned this time that I might have a hard time only knowing cereal box french. I'm not worried about not knowing the language anywhere else, just is France. Is what they say true or will I be okay?

I visited southern France where everyone was super nice and lovely. I don't speak French but those people would try their damnedest to speak with me anyways! (imagine lots of hand motions!) But they (those who spoke English) also told me that Parisians are really snooty and don't like to help any foreigners. I managed to get through about 2.5 weeks in southern France with knowing only "I don't speak French" and "Another glass of white wine please."

[CynicalQuixotic]

I visited southern France where everyone was super nice and lovely. I don't speak French but those people would try their damnedest to speak with me anyways! (imagine lots of hand motions!) But they (those who spoke English) also told me that Parisians are really snooty and don't like to help any foreigners. I managed to get through about 2.5 weeks in southern France with knowing only "I don't speak French" and "Another glass of white wine please."

I've found that people in southern France in general are much more laid-back and friendly in the American sense than Parisians. I call Parisians New Yorkers on anger pills. The thing is, outside of touristy areas, most French people really don't speak great English, and thus what might seem like rudeness and/or snobbishness is probably the general Parisian mien of not so smiley/not used to talking to strangers/honestly not understanding you. Rach321 gave excellent advice--a few key French phrases will get you very, very far. In my experience, Parisians find it respectful and very endearing when foreigners really give speaking French a shot, and they will be much more accommodating. But never ask a Parisian for directions, it will get you nowhere.

I've never been to other places in northern France, but, I agree with everyone else that it would probably be a much richer experience to spend 5-7 days in Paris. Definitely try to hit all of the traditional tourist sights (Notre Dame, Tour Eiffel, the Louvre, the Butte in Montmartre, Sainte-Chappelle, Place de la Concorde), but also, there are some great arrondissements to just walk through. I'm personally very fond of the Marais--it's the trendy gay AND Jewish district of Paris, and there are gorgeous cobblestone streets and great delis and vintage stores and little boutiques to look through. I also really love the Musée Cluny, which is Paris' medieval museum. If you have time, going to Versailles is most definitely worth the trip too: it's about a 40-45 minute train ride on the RER C, and even in normal Paris blah weather, the palace is beautiful and the gardens are exquisite.

Mostly, I recommend walking. Paris is THE walking city and you're never far from a métro station if you get lost. Also, eat a crêpe, a pho, and a falafel. (I can give you my favorite places for each, if you're interested. )

[kittyo9]

I've had good and bad experiences with the French. In Luxembourg, most people speak French, and those who don't speak English are sometimes downright rude to anybody who doesn't speak French. We had an incident where my friends needed to go to the bathroom, so they went down to it and paid the lady, but she refused to give them their change, even when they tried asking for it in French.

A whole bunch of students in my group went to Paris one weekend and most of them came back delighted (although the trip was much too short), but they did have a few stories of snarky French people. Many times it was just that anti-American sentiment, but they said they seemed to fair much better when they tried to speak French as opposed to addressing them in English first.

I hardly speak any French, myself-- when I was in Luxembourg, I resorted to German or just saying that I don't speak French in French (one of the very few phrases I know). In a few instances, I just got these dirty looks like, "Well what are you doing here, then?" Other times they'd just leave me alone.

I did have some good encounters, though. Once I was on a train heading to the Netherlands and I was being pursued by this creepy guy, so I said I was meeting my friend and found a seat with this cute old French guy, who helped me make sure I was on the right train even though I didn't speak French and he barely spoke any English. Another time-- on my flight back from Luxembourg, I think it was-- I ended up sitting next to a middle-aged French guy who was very friendly to me, and we talked for a while about traveling and stuff (in English, of course).

To be fair, Americans aren't much better. There is a stigma towards anyone who doesn't speak a word of English in the US-- it's just become kind of expected for us. I imagine the French feel kind of the same.

[lucybelle]

To be fair, Americans aren't much better. There is a stigma towards anyone who doesn't speak a word of English in the US-- it's just become kind of expected for us. I imagine the French feel kind of the same.

Not to take this thread completely off topic, but I disagree. I think that lots of Americans LOVE foreign visitors. It makes them feel like they're cultured, "I have a friend from Belarus who says ...!!!" Although I do think that once these visitors become residents, the attitude changes to "They're in my country, why haven't they learned English????!!!"

[Rach321]

Not to take this thread completely off topic, but I disagree. I think that lots of Americans LOVE foreign visitors. It makes them feel like they're cultured, "I have a friend from Belarus who says ...!!!" Although I do think that once these visitors become residents, the attitude changes to "They're in my country, why haven't they learned English????!!!"

Hmm- I disagree with you to an extent. I do agree that a lot of Americans like the ability to say they know people from other countries, but workers in restaurants, transportation, etc. are often not so patient when customers are unable to speak English. I can imagine that non-English speaking tourists have a difficult time in certain places.

[CynicalQuixotic]

I've had good and bad experiences with the French. In Luxembourg, most people speak French, and those who don't speak English are sometimes downright rude to anybody who doesn't speak French. We had an incident where my friends needed to go to the bathroom, so they went down to it and paid the lady, but she refused to give them their change, even when they tried asking for it in French.

A whole bunch of students in my group went to Paris one weekend and most of them came back delighted (although the trip was much too short), but they did have a few stories of snarky French people. Many times it was just that anti-American sentiment, but they said they seemed to fair much better when they tried to speak French as opposed to addressing them in English first.

I hate to be picky, but people from Luxembourg aren't French, they're Luxembourgers. (Which I think is a pretty hilarious word!) Though it's a small country, it's most likely quite a different culture.

It really bugs me when people write off French people being rude as "anti-American". French culture has much different social priorities than American culture does, and often Americans are unaware of this and thus wires are crossed and everyone misinterprets each other. For example, French people don't talk to strangers--it's just something that's not done. They think it's beyond strange when random people come up to them and talk, especially because, at least in Paris, the only people who do that are scammers. Also, I think native speakers of English in general tend to take the fact that English is a tourism lingua franca to kind of absurd and entitled lengths. Of course a French person is going to be weirded out if you walk up to them and speak English. The grand majority of them outside of the tourist/business industry only learned it in school and barely speak it. Wouldn't you think it a bit strange if someone expected you to speak a foreign language that you don't speak just because it's his/hers? Of course you shouldn't limit yourself to visiting only countries whose language(s) you speak, but, expecting everyone to be perfectly polite in a foreign country when you only speak English to them, outside of very specific touristic areas, is completely unrealistic.

I'm not picking on you specifically, kitty, so I apologize if this comes off that way. This is just one of my big pet peeves.

[Haley53]

I visited Paris for a weekend with my ex, and though I'm not entirely sure it's at the top of my list to return to, I would say that you need more than a weekend. I certainly can't give it much of a critique having only stayed from, I think Friday to Monday morning? If that? But it was absolutely beautiful. We were on the eiffel tower when they turned on the evening lights, and though it was freezing, that moment was certainly worth it. The architecture is pretty beautiful and incredible as well.

I can't say I was too fond of the people, but like CQ said, maybe it's an issue of difference in culture as opposed to the anti-American/English stigma that they're stereotyped to have, and maybe their aloofness comes off as arrogance when that's hardly the intention, but my ex did catch shit from a waiter because he wanted ketchup with his meal. The waiter literally glared down his nose at my ex, said, "ketchup?", and when my ex said "yes, please," the waiter scoffed and muttered something about "stupid Americans" (though my ex wasn't American). That was probably the most outspoken attitude we were faced with, however; the others seemed more impatience at the language barrier or simply that aloofness that I mentioned.

Lucybelle, I think both you and Rach are correct, but it's dependent on the country. Knowing someone from Australia or running into a visitor from Europe, for example, is generally perceived differently than someone from a country such as Mexico. Someone light-skinned from Africa will be perceived differently than someone who is dark skinned and from Africa. And people from Asian cultures seem to be treated differently as well. Like I said on your thread, a lot of Americans seem to feel, to borrow your words, "cultured" knowing someone from another country, but that other country has to be held with a certain amount of prestige, same as marrying someone from the UK is often less likely to turn heads about greencards here than if you stated you were marrying someone from, say, Peru or Thailand. I think when it comes to spanish speaking people, it's difficult, at least here in California, because it's hard to determine who's a legal resident, who isn't, and who is visiting, and a lot of people do tend to have negative attitudes towards immigrants or those to be perceived as immigrants, especially in recent years. But I do think both you and Rach are right; it simply really depends on the context.

@snow_girl - I have never been to Amsterdam though I'm dying to go. I'm envious! But I certainly agree with the others in that you need more than a few days to explore even Paris. :P