I want to curl into a ball and feel sad forever...

[Lunar Snow]

Okay, fair enough.

I am aware of that aspect of Amsterdam and the thought has come to mind, also. Yes, I would like to think he would be faithful to me, regardless of where he is. I feel hurt and I feel like I can't trust him right now, overall. It does make me wonder a bit if by continuing on with him is leaving me open to being hurt again. If he is so focused on this one dream and loves the city so much, then what are his motivations? If he is so focused on himself right now, all of a sudden, then could he remain faithful to me in a new and exciting situation (whether it be some girl in a bar or cafe or a prostitute)? Might going from a place like Kansas, where sexual issues may not be as open, to going to Amsterdam where there seems to be more openness, and...maybe, to him, less accountability, might make him feel less faithful and accountable, when he is immersed in a place that he wants so badly to be a part of?

My intention wasn't to hijack your thread, Lunar Snow. I thought that LoveL said was offensive and commented really in your defense, as I'd be pissed off if someone implied that my boyfriend was moving to Amsterdam because he wanted to have sex with prostitutes. I have no interest in derailing your thread, and I really am sorry for what you're going through.

[LoveL]

Well, being open to working through some of this with you means he obviously has feelings for you. But I think given the way that it seems he is talking right now, you might be setting yourself up for some more grief while he goes through this period where is just so in love with his new city. (Prostitutes or not )

You'll either need to prepare yourself for being very patient with him or you need to make the decision to cut ties for a little while and see where that leaves the two of you. If you already feel like he isn't all that interested in you, then I think you already have your answer. If you have some hope for him, then keep it going. But do so in a reserved manner and see how he responds.

You don't want him to resent you for any of this. That will be his fall-to position, since he's already in selfish mode for a little bit.

[Off2Spain]

I really don't think most men who visit Amsterdam say "hey, while I'm here, I'll go have sex with a prostitute!" I think that opinion is very common when it comes to smoking pot there, but, prostitution is a very culturally loaded institution and I don't think most guys would pay for it, even in a country where it was legal, if they had a chance of picking up some girl at a bar instead.

I'm interested to see if any of our Dutch members weigh in on this.

Thank YOU!!! I'm Dutch and I live in Amsterdam! I have to say its muchmuch easier to get a prostitute ANYWHERE else. Yes its legal and thats only to protect these girls. We offer them free healthcare and many programs to step out of prostitution. The streets where they work are FILLED with police. Anybody with a right mind would think twice to start with an 'easy' girl like that.
Many tourists come to Amsterdam not for the legalized prostitution but for the beautiful van gogh museum, the rijks museum with all of rembrandts paintings. Simply the art. Also the city center is on the Unesco list. Im a 22 year old girl living in Amsterdam, and I feel much safer here then any other city (I have travelled a lot).
And just to put facts straight: we have the lowest drug rates in the world, the lowest STD rates in the world and also the lowest teen pregnancy rates in the world. Maybe we use a controversial method, but it works.
Sorry to Hijack the thread, but just had to put that out there with all the Crap Santorum has been saying!

[ChibiFelicia]

I've read your threads throughtout and i didnt want to post since i feel some people have made some inappropiate comments (regarding the whole Amsterdam thing - no matter where someone goes, if they want to cheat they will. Its got nothing to do with which country they go to), although it seems it has stopped. I hope you're feeling better today however i think you've made the right decision to try it out.

Im a firm believer in never holding back someones goals, and yes if you are prepared to keep going at it you will need to make sacrifices (both you and him). I do agree with Eclaire that i feel you may be taking this a little too personally. I understand why i just still believe that you shouldnt hold him back. You have to decide whether you want to keep this going. Dont pressure him into giving you a definite answer. either be there fully to support him with this or maybe rethink it. If you arent 100% behind your decision one of you will end up getting hurt. I wouldnt just be saying this to you. I'd say this to your guy too. My man and i had to make some very tough descisions regarding our goals we want to pursue, i will have to make sacrifices for him (as he hasnt reached his goal yet) but i am 100% behind it because if i aint imma resent him.

I really dont feel he's being selfish, im sure this is hard for himtoo.

Bit about treating you with more respect and romance? The respect thing, yes i hope he understands that. The romance thing? Im not sure thats as important. Some guys just arent that romantic. But whatever flaots your boat.

[Kiyama]

I agree with Eclaire and Chibifelicia. If this really is his dream, you shouldn't stop him and encourage him to pursue it. My SO and I had a "unfortunate" timing. We had known each other for a while but weren't together yet when he made the decision to take a job in America. At first I felt hurt as well but after talking to him and him reassuring me that this had nothing to do with his feelings for me, I was more understanding. It was a great opportunity, he wanted to get away from his old job and above all, CA was a place he wanted to go to for a while. So how could I possibly stop him from leaving, which would have made him feel miserable? Exactly... and even though we had to go long distance, I still believe it was the right thing to do and we are making things work. Don't make the mistake and take it too personally because I don't think it is.
I can see though why you feel hurt because all your plans seem to fall apart now. You will have to make a decision if you want to keep the relationship going but the one thing I don't think you should do is try and stop him for going and giving him a hard time about it.

[Malaga]

The tricky thing about ambition is if you stop someone from following it in whatever way, sooner or later they'll resent you for it. When you say he hasn't been respectful or romantic enough - to me it seems that his feelings for you might be swinging right now because he feels your lack of support considering what's important to him. If he feels like you don't respect his goals and decisions, he might have a problem taking you seriously enough, as well as feeling lovey dovey towards you. I understand you're devastated by this change, but the way you guys have discussed this, it seems more like guilt tripping, and that usually has the opposite effect.

You say he's making this into him vs you kind of thing, but I feel you have made it that way yourself. He identifies with his dream and if your attitude from the start had been "so that's it then" as if he's betrayed you by following it, then he is going to feel as if you're on the opposite side.

You are also taking him way too seriously when he says he'd like to stay there forever, IMO. Staying somewhere as a tourist, and living there as an immigrant are two totally different experiences. He might be carried away by enthusiasm right now, but sooner or later he's going to come down to earth and then he might see things in a different light. In any case, his feelings re: staying should have more gravity after he's actually experienced living there, than they do now.

If you decide that you can't handle the change, there is nothing wrong with that. Clearly his focus at the moment is on his career and life experience rather than closing the distance. You have every right not to accept it. But if you want to stay in the relationship and make it work, you absolutely must shake off this feeling that he betrayed you. You guys will never be OK until you do.

[ChibiFelicia]

The tricky thing about ambition is if you stop someone from following it in whatever way, sooner or later they'll resent you for it. When you say he hasn't been respectful or romantic enough - to me it seems that his feelings for you might be swinging right now because he feels your lack of support considering what's important to him. If he feels like you don't respect his goals and decisions, he might have a problem taking you seriously enough, as well as feeling lovey dovey towards you. I understand you're devastated by this change, but the way you guys have discussed this, it seems more like guilt tripping, and that usually has the opposite effect.

You say he's making this into him vs you kind of thing, but I feel you have made it that way yourself. He identifies with his dream and if your attitude from the start had been "so that's it then" as if he's betrayed you by following it, then he is going to feel as if you're on the opposite side.

You are also taking him way too seriously when he says he'd like to stay there forever, IMO. Staying somewhere as a tourist, and living there as an immigrant are two totally different experiences. He might be carried away by enthusiasm right now, but sooner or later he's going to come down to earth and then he might see things in a different light. In any case, his feelings re: staying should have more gravity after he's actually experienced living there, than they do now.

If you decide that you can't handle the change, there is nothing wrong with that. Clearly his focus at the moment is on his career and life experience rather than closing the distance. You have every right not to accept it. But if you want to stay in the relationship and make it work, you absolutely must shake off this feeling that he betrayed you. You guys will never be OK until you do.

Said an awful lot better than i did. I've never had a way with words.

[Lunar Snow]

I appreciate all the comments--you can keep them coming. They are helping me sort things out. I wanted to set a few things straight, though.

I have never asked him to stay. I have made that clear to him, also. What I have done is express my own feelings and, of course, those include wishing he would come my way or consider other options after he has experienced living there for awhile. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It wouldn't be a relationship or open communication if I held back what I was feeling. I can't magically change the way I feel, either. I have told him that I am proud of him for the opportunity and other such positive comments, but I won't lie and I say I am ecstatic and he should take the job. That's his choice. So, he should never feel I am "holding him back." What I have also done is helped him think about this decision and consider other aspects that it would affect (e.g., not just our relationship, but his family, friends, his current job, places he loves there). I think that is a good thing, not a bad thing.

As for the him vs. me thing. It may seem that it is more about me, because it is me posting on this forum for advice and comfort. I don't need others to be such strong advocates for him, because he is already advocating for himself. <.<; As for the actual conversations, yes, the first conversation was like that. It is personal because he made it that way, at first. He didn't give me a chance, really, either--he said that our goals were now suddenly not aligned and that was why he shouldn't feel the same way about me. It feels like a betrayal, because he has left me (supposed to be his best friend, too) out of the process and this situation has come to me completely as a blind side. That first conversation really seemed like he hadn't considered anything other than taking the job at all and he went, within a day, from being warm to being very cold and analytical. For me, it went from having a goal we were working toward together, to all about his dream and I didn't know where all that came from...it's not something one can get over quickly. I also never thought of him as someone who would choose career over relationship...that just never seemed like it would happen.

Um...what else? Well, I think that because his mother was born in Holland, he and his siblings might have dual citizenship, or at least a good chance of getting it. So, that might make the whole transition a lot easier?

About treating me with more respect and romance. The romance bit is because he can be very romantic and creative. I think that increasing that, especially if we have come into a place where things have become more routine and now feelings have been hurt, too, could go a good way towards helping things between us. He has made a choice that gives him a lot of things to look forward to and feel excited and happy about and he needs to make some choices that would help our relationship feel the same way. Right now, I feel like I have been putting in a lot of effort and I need to see more from him, in order to have hope that things will work. This can be small things, too. For instance, I asked him to try and figure out times during the day that it would work for us to Skype together and how often he might like to do it, etc. That was a SUPER easy one, since we already tried that when he was away and it just needed some fine tuning. All he had to do was send me a short email and he hasn't, so far... What about all the cute texts he used to send me? These are small things. I feel like if I initiate them that it really isn't him making the effort and I will come off as really clingy.

Let me know if you want me to clarify or elaborate on anything else.

P.S., he hasn't left yet. He said something vague about sometime during the summer (again, he could be more descriptive). I don't think he has told his work place about it and I think they will be right annoyed (his bosses and co-workers aren't just that, they are his friends, too. They just had some interns finish for the year and fine-tuning their projects has now also fallen on my SO. He has a lot to do there, it seems, and I think that if he gives them just a 2 week notice, or less, they might be right annoyed! Also, I wonder that if he has a contract, then it might be quite difficult to quit. ...but, is it my job to tell him this? There are lots of other things like this, which make it seem like he really hasn't given much other thought, even just in terms of sorting necessary/ basic things out before he leaves. If he leaves it all to the last minute, things will be very stressful for him and I am not sure that I can or should be his sounding board/ shoulder to cry on, either, when he didn't extend that role to me during the process of getting the job or making the choice).

[marbear31]

I think Malaga said it perfectly. Just from reading the past several pages of everyone's posts. as well as seeing how this situation has progressed, I'm absolutely torn as to how to express myself regarding this. I definitely see both of your sides...

You know that saying, "It's all about perspective?" I always think that's the best maxim to apply to emotionally difficult situations--looking at the other's perspective, trying to explore it through their shoes, and then stepping out of that mindset, and reapplying it to your own emotions and thoughts, adds a more cosmopolitan clarity to your consciousness. I think that is maybe an exercise that both of you could do, simply to reach a compromise. I know nothing is set in stone yet, but maybe it's best to take a step back, and simply reflect.

I think if you don't think of this in the mindset of "him vs. me" it might be easier to reach a compromise. He sounds like he feels like he's being pushed into a corner, and is issuing ultimatums that way, and you feel like you're being pushed into a corner as well. Maybe meeting in the middle will make for some wide, open spaces? [/end cheesy metaphor] :P I really wish you the best of luck in this, because I know there ar more factors than us LFADers can see, but I do hope this works out for your relationship.

Seriously, though, Malaga said my thoughts more elegantly than I ever could have expressed.

[Lunar Snow]

Yes, when we had our last talk about this whole thing, I actually tried a bit of role playing. Except, I got stuck because I was trying to be really true to what he was saying to me, where he was putting his own wishes onto my character. So...it didn't quite work out, but he did like it and I think we could both try it. Overall, yes, it would be a good idea to think about it more from his perspective, which I have done to a certain extent, but I am not ready for more of that right now. I need time to sort out my own feelings.

Cheesy (awesomely so) metaphors aside, I am coming around (with time, thought, and healing) to wanting to meet in the middle...but the problem is that he doesn't seem to want to make any compromises and meet in the middle. D: However, I do think it would be useful to do more of the role-playing, but I don't know how to get him to be motivated to do it or continue with it and I don't want to make all the effort for it. Er...does that make sense? I fear that if I do it again, that he won't fully engage in trying to take my perspective and it will feel like beating my head against a wall (my heart already aches; I don't want a sore head, too!).

I think Malaga said it perfectly. Just from reading the past several pages of everyone's posts. as well as seeing how this situation has progressed, I'm absolutely torn as to how to express myself regarding this. I definitely see both of your sides...

You know that saying, "It's all about perspective?" I always think that's the best maxim to apply to emotionally difficult situations--looking at the other's perspective, trying to explore it through their shoes, and then stepping out of that mindset, and reapplying it to your own emotions and thoughts, adds a more cosmopolitan clarity to your consciousness. I think that is maybe an exercise that both of you could do, simply to reach a compromise. I know nothing is set in stone yet, but maybe it's best to take a step back, and simply reflect.

I think if you don't think of this in the mindset of "him vs. me" it might be easier to reach a compromise. He sounds like he feels like he's being pushed into a corner, and is issuing ultimatums that way, and you feel like you're being pushed into a corner as well. Maybe meeting in the middle will make for some wide, open spaces? [/end cheesy metaphor] :P I really wish you the best of luck in this, because I know there ar more factors than us LFADers can see, but I do hope this works out for your relationship.

Seriously, though, Malaga said my thoughts more elegantly than I ever could have expressed.

[Dauntedpoet]

My heart aches for you. I have to say, I disagree with most of the posts, because I would take it very personally to have my SO apply for a job that would vacate all plans we'd been making for years, without blinking.

I would fully expect you to support him in his pursuit of his dream job, HOWEVER, I would expect his first thoughts when considering applying for the job to have been how to restructure your plans for the future and discuss it with you. That way IF he applied for the job and got it.. it would/could be a great adventure for you BOTH. He didn't do that, he completely removed you from the equation and marginalized you, and that makes it all seem very underhanded and selfish to me. (Apologies for being so blunt, but I am giving you MY OPINION on how I would feel if this was happening to me).

I realize I am in the minority, but I agree with your thoughts on your not wanting to be the only person working at the relationship AND his certainly completely advocating for himself. Who is advocating for you?

[Lunar Snow]

THANK YOU! I have certainly appreciated all the other opinions, also, but I am glad that someone was able to so clearly express how I am feeling and why and that it is okay to feel that way.

Yes, it could have been a very different thing, if he had handled things that way. I wish he had and, perhaps pathetically, I wish he would still try.

What would you do in my situation? I am taking everyone's comments into account. My family, while there for me, is really not helping (This is vastly boiled down...Mom: I told you so. Long-distance relationships end in hurt.; Sister: he's an arse...toss him to the curb, because I have gone through life and love before you and I want to put you in a bubble; Dad: guys are selfish and inconsiderate and that is all you should expect. Sucks for you.; Nanna: don't burn bridges, think of it as a cheap travel opportunity!).

I have tried to advocate for me, in that I am tired of coming second or even further down his list of priorities. Even if this dream of career and place is top priority, why can't I be included in that, in a new way? Why should I have to struggle so much even to get him to start thinking about that?

My heart aches for you. I have to say, I disagree with most of the posts, because I would take it very personally to have my SO apply for a job that would vacate all plans we'd been making for years, without blinking.

I would fully expect you to support him in his pursuit of his dream job, HOWEVER, I would expect his first thoughts when considering applying for the job to have been how to restructure your plans for the future and discuss it with you. That way IF he applied for the job and got it.. it would/could be a great adventure for you BOTH. He didn't do that, he completely removed you from the equation and marginalized you, and that makes it all seem very underhanded and selfish to me. (Apologies for being so blunt, but I am giving you MY OPINION on how I would feel if this was happening to me).

I realize I am in the minority, but I agree with your thoughts on your not wanting to be the only person working at the relationship AND his certainly completely advocating for himself. Who is advocating for you?

[Lunar Snow]

An update for everyone is that we had been keeping talk casual the past few days. Finally, I asked about whether he would be selling his car (to help myself sleep and not be thinking about this constantly, I sometimes pretend that it is a bad dream and I will wake up and even talking about this fairly neutral thing, seemed to make all these emotions rise up for me) and that seemed to open him up a bit (still, why is it me always opening up the issue? Isn't it pretty clear to him that I was hurt because he didn't include me, even by just talking about it?). He eventually went into greater detail and I guess he has done the final negotiations with them...and I listened and listened some more (mostly trying to keep myself from sinking into further despair). He did ask for two round trip tickets to where I live (for his first year?). They didn't give him those, but they doubled his relocation allowance, so I guess I have to trust that he will put that money aside? He said he was happy with that, because it meant that he didn't have to save up and "wait" for us to visit. Yet...I don't think he realizes that no job is likely let him to take vacation time within the first few months of starting. I couldn't bring myself to ask how long he has signed on for to start with. I am not sure what to do about that--either I should let the chips fall as they may and back off a little, as some of you have suggested...or I ask and keep myself in the loop and not feel so in the dark or blind-sided if he has signed on for longer right away. Thoughts?

His contract will run out with his current job in the beginning in July. So, he is trying to get a start date at the end of July. He says that "maybe" we can see each other before he leaves. Small, potential consolation?

We haven't said our "I love you"s since the last serious conversation about the issue a few days ago. I can't say it first this time around and he needs to say it first. He needs to take the lead on some of these things (repairing things between us) to show me that he will continue to put effort in later.

[LoveL]

Did you guys say your "I love yous" with great regularity before all of this? Or is not saying it pretty normal?

My dad works over seas as well and he was lucky enough to secure guaranteed tickets back and forth for immediate family members once per year, but he got lucky. Other people at the same company don't have that perk. It's a true blessing.
You had mentioned his relocation allowance being doubled.... that's substantial. Even if they can't give him vacation to come and see you, then he has extra cash to set you up with a ticket to come and see him, right? I don't really see there being a big problem there. But, based on what you feel like right now, I don't think you see him as wanting to do that.

We do have to remember that he can't read your mind. If you need to hear "I love you" come from his lips first or if you need him to be more open with you and have you as part of the conversation, you sometimes have to tell him. It doesn't take away from the meaning just because you said it first. He very well might be feeling some of the tension of the past few days and because he doesn't hear you say it either, then he isn't saying it. (I'm not saying that this is exactly what's happening. Just taking stabs in the dark.)

What is the tone of your conversation like? Are you attentive and loving? Are you cutesy? Are you standoffish because of how cold he has been? All of those things play into how conversations flow and ultimately how he will respond to you and you to him. You know, it's one of those cycles. Have you ever just flatly said to him, "Boyfriend, I feel like you have left me out of this big decision. I don't feel like I'm a big part of your life. I need to hear you tell me that you love me, because I love you and I need to know that I am not alone. I am feeling vulnerable and lost right now. Are you still with me?"

I know that, personally, there is no better eye-opener than when LoveJ really just comes out and expresses all of her concerns or hurts or whatever with me. I do my best to be attentive and caring in day-to-day instances, but I do overlook things. And seeing concern or really hearing her heart on issues is the best way to get my shit realigned and make sure that the focus is on both of us. It's not that I don't hear what she says in regular conversation. But when I can hear in her voice or see in her face those things that really need to be addressed at the heart level, then my eyes are opened a little more than normal. It would seem to me that your fella just needs to really hear your heart. (Make sure your motivations are where they are supposed to be.) But if he isn't willing to listen to something that is of great concern to you, even if he sees it as being a silly little thing, then there are bigger issues to worry about.

Try and separate the emotion from this and have a conversation as partners in life, not just as two people with an emotional attachment. Does that make sense?

[Mara]

It's been so long since I have been active on here, I really debated responding, but since my situation was a good deal similar I will try to add my two cents.

If you remember, my SO decided almost a year ago now to the day that he was going to be going back to school for a master's degree in a different field. We had talked about him doing this vaguely before, but he had always assured me that he didn't really want to do it, he wouldn't be doing it, and if he did do it, he would go to a school in the same city as me. We had a visit in which we talked about how many children we would have, wedding plans after we closed the distance [which was about six months away from happening at the time], and just general happiness and joy at being in the home stretch.

About a month later, he springs on me [through text message no less] that he had decided to go back to school for a master's in a different field and that he was looking at schools that would more than double our current distance. There was no discussion, he was simply telling me what he had decided. I felt betrayed, hurt, confused, angry, a million things at once because that wasn't what we had discussed. That wasn't what we had planned.

We spent the rest of last year arguing about it and with me pretty much hating him or at least, resenting the heck out of him. The year ended and I made up my mind that either I was going to start over in 2012 alone or I was going to decide to stay with him and to do my best to be supportive and understanding. I chose the latter.

At the end of the day, I just had to realize that a) it wasn't about me or us. It was a personal decision that he was making that was the best thing for him. If I loved him, which I do, I had to be supportive of that and remove myself and our relationship from the equation. But I also had to realize that b) he wanted this relationship to work just as much as I did. For some reason him changing plans on me like that made me feel like he no longer wanted me or us because this decision felt so detrimental to us, but again it wasn't about us. Lastly, I came to the fact that c) he didn't have a lot of answers. He still doesn't. But I have to trust that we love each other enough and we both want this to work enough that we will make a way somehow.

I would suggest taking some time away from your SO. Just a day or two so that you can breathe. You are raw right now, really, really raw and I don't think talking right now is the best thing. You need time to realize and accept that this is happening. You need time to let that sink in and time to be sad over the plans you had that aren't going to be anymore. But then, and this might be hard, try to get excited about new plans. Plans to visit him there, this new job of his, new places for you to go and see on visits.

It's not an overnight thing being okay with something like this. Give yourself time. And when you do talk to your SO just be completely honest. You love him and you want what is best for him, but obviously this comes as a bit of a shock to you.