Is it cheating? Jumped the pond and found an ugly scenario.

[AussieAmericanGirl66]

Both of you need to be happy and feel that you can trust each other, or your relationship would be in trouble. I have found that communication and trust are two of the most important aspects of a LDR. You can't be with him all the time, so you don't know what he is doing, but you certainly need to be able to trust him, and know that he isn't being intimate with other women, even on chat, which can become rather dangerous at times. You also need to be clear with him about boundaries, and what you will or won't tolerate. My SO has female friends, just casual friends, and I asked him if he would mind if I chat with other men, and he said it's OK. Well, it's funny, because I don't chat with other men much at all, and I don't feel very comfortable about it. My heart is for him only. I guess my mind feels the same way.

What I don't understand is why he was doing this when you were supposed to be celebrating your anniversary with a special Skype call, and then he had some lame excuse for why he didn't call you. I would be very upset about that. Added to the fact that you discovered this has been going on for several months, with the same girl, that is a big red flag. And it does sound like the flirting he was doing, which she was encouraging, was inappropriate, and could have led to more. I would even wonder if he was a player and had other online girls he was flirting with.

It sounds to me like you need to have a serious talk with him, and set some boundaries with him. These LDR situations are hard enough, with the distance, time zones, and financial aspects without having to worry about trust issues. It gets lonely and frustrating sometimes, but there are other ways to handle it, than getting involved with others, and playing around and cheating.

[piratemama]

I'm sorry you are dealing with all this hurt and disappointment. I would also consider this cheating, if it happened to me. The only reason he talked with a girl that way is because he wanted to cheat. If he was all good, he would have told you all about it to start with. He shared a part of himself with someone that he made you believe was meant only for you. He still isn't owning up to his behavior being wrong which means he will probably do the same thing again. Dealing with a real person is not the same as porn. She was there, and he was hoping she would be willing.

I'm so sorry you are far away from home with this happening to you.

[Chillosaurus]

Am I over-reacting? What disturbs me the most: this was happening at the time I felt most connected to him; that he would act so out of character for a cheap and temporary thrill; that he was seeking it out for several months; and that he lied to her to get her to keep talking. That's why I feel this wasn't an innocent conversation between friends.

If you were in my shoes, overseas, what would you do? Would you tell them that he has used up his one chance and forgive, or would you leave? And how could you trust again?

I couldn't find the following points, maybe you mentioned it, your text is tooooo long, sorry:
What are the bounderies with other women you have clearly communicated to him, which he AGREED to?
Did he cross any of these boundaries?

[FoxFight]

Whether he came out and said......"Yes I want to F$ck ou " or not, anyone with common sense knows he meant it. She certainly believed it and you know it in your heart. Again, not telling you to break up with him, but again I hear you minimizing his acts....

Although I really don't like it - you're right. I am minimizing what happened because I love him so much and I just put my entire life on hold with plans to be in the UK for months. Would I stay if we were still apart? I don't know, probably not.

The fact that he could do this while we were so in love is setting off red lights, alarm bells, and feels like the ship is sinking. We are addressing this in it's full scope and he has admitted that he sees it as cheating as well. He's not trying to minimize it, but I can't help but feeling like he is placating me. I find myself questioning his every word.

I asked him when I got here if something had been going on, because I felt suspicious after I seeing that a girl from his course had sent him texts apologizing for the night before, saying she was drunk. He confessed that there was an evening their friends group went out dancing and one of the girls kept trying to dance up on him, trying to make something happen. He told me that he walked away, and when she followed, he told her point blank that he had a girlfriend and wasn't interested.

Their group is very close and they have known since day one that we were a couple, I was coming, and that he would often miss nights out because he was skyping or calling me or would miss weekend outings because he was trying to find a house for us, or wanted to save those "first" experiences in Scotland for when I was there. So I think, if nothing else, he wouldn't have done anything physical with this girl to save his reputation. So maybe he did feel these urges to cheat and that's why he took this route to do it "anonymously" (as in online, with a woman who was not connected to any of his or my friends and family). Would he have done something physical if she was in arms reach or if some one else showed interest and he knew he wouldn't get caught? Would he have taken it farther and made it about she and him if she suggested it? I can't answer that, and although he tells me "no" when I ask these things, I have a hard time believing him.

You also need to be clear with him about boundaries, and what you will or won't tolerate.... What I don't understand is why he was doing this when you were supposed to be celebrating your anniversary with a special Skype call, and then he had some lame excuse for why he didn't call you.

I think this boundary was pretty obvious. No, we had never formally set out lines not to cross - but come on... In what relationship would it be acceptable to lead on another woman, ask her multiple times about her sex life, and lie about your relationship (he never told her that we weren't together, and his profile picture was always of the two of us - but still, he was talking about other girls "wanting it" and "having to wait", so he was downplaying his commitment to me. He was fitting the needs of her so that they could continue to talk openly about their sex lives, obviously knowing she wasn't going to keep talking if he said "I am fully committed and would never dream of anyone else.")

Not that it makes it any better, but this wasn't happening during our anniversary.

[FoxFight]

I want to believe that this was a one-time slip up and he lost who he was while he was lonely and re-inventing himself. I want to believe that because he has bent over backwards to please me in this relationship for 3 years during which time I was not being a fair or generous partner to him. This is the man that offered to carry me into the ER when I thought I broke my foot, the guy who biked 30kms to buy me sushi one evening to cheer me up, and the one who was sat waiting at my bus stop at 6am the day I started a new job just to wish me luck. For three years he dedicated his whole being to me - when I wanted to go back to school, he bought a car and drove me across the country, he moved to Toronto so that I could look for internships, then he moved again to my tiny hometown and worked in a coffee shop so that I could take an entry-level job. Much of this time, we weren't even living together, but he still supported me and followed me to make it work. All the while, all his friends were still using their Canadian visas to ski and party in the mountains. He visits my grandparents because he knows they're lonely, he messages my aunt on facebook because they're his family, too. He sends postcards to my family and co-workers back home. He has spent hundreds of dollars on counseling to be a better partner to me since I am prone to chronic depression, has read countless books on improving communication and empathy... I don't want to paint the picture that he has been uncommitted in the past, because if anything, it was me that wasn't. This is truly the first time that he has f*cked up majorly - yes, it's huge, and no, it will never be ok. But how much slack should I be cutting him?

But all that said, during his time in Canada, all that time he was being committed, I think he had lost himself and was also just doing whatever he could to keep our relationship on track, since it's all that he had (and he told me this many times, he was lost and I was his anchor. He was desperate to make it work). He lived in my world and conformed to my needs and expectations to get by and therefore he wasn't wholly himself during those three years. He was who I wanted him to be. So he came back to the UK and found new confidence in pursuing his own dreams and making his own friends in this masters program. And that's when this all happened, when our life together disbanded in Canada and he knew he was coming back here, that I might not follow, and that he could get along without me. He took back his life and that's when things got intimate between she and him - in January, when we weren't sure I would come, and he allowed it to continue and intensify into February when we had solidified our plans and had grown closer than ever. So I am questioning who he is as a person and as a partner now that the playing fields are level.

In both of our eyes, he cheated while in love and committed to me. Is this simply who he is when he is confident and feels totally in control of his own life?

[ethelynn]

How much slack? You say you weren't a fair a generous partner, but did you ever do anything that would be counted as cheating? There are limits in a relationship and no matter how amazing things he has done, nothing makes up or justifies cheating. It's up to you to know if you can ever trust him again.

I am not completely objective about it, because i don't tolerate lying or cheating. I've been cheated on before and I have zero-tolerance to it. But.. it doesn't really say much in his favor when he cheats on you while you are in love and happy. How far is he willing to go when he is down and lonely? Is there really anything he can do to make you believe in him again? When you found out about what he had done, did he remove that woman from his life?

I really hope it's going to get better and councelor will help you!

[FoxFight]

You're right, I'm sure you can read between the lines and see me going back and forth trying to figure out if this is a line that has been crossed that I find intolerable. I have to say that in my heart I have the overwhelming feeling that I can never trust him again. Even though this isn't cheating in a cut and dry physical or emotional sense, it was still cheating to me and he breached something sacred. And yes, the worst part is that it was happening when we were happy and were discussing the rest of our lives together. It was weak and maybe he's feeling certain it won't happen again now (that he's been caught and is forced to watch me fall apart), but when some one has that characteristic does it really ever change?

Thanks for talking, everyone. It is helpful to have some form of support while I try and work through my thoughts and emotions.

[ethelynn]

Did you ask him if the decision of you moving there was really only about him wanting you there and not related to him feeling guilty? Does he feel sure he wants you and only you? What about my last question, did he do something about that woman or are they still talking?

[FoxFight]

I have asked him countless times if he is truly happy with me, if he wants me here, and what he sees our future as. I have explained that there is no benefit to lying at this point. He has told me point-blank, each time, that this is the most important part of his life and nothing else matters, that I make him happy, and that he has always known that he wants to marry me, have kids, and grow old together. He says that I am "it" for him. But he has always felt that way - and yet still cheated - so although I believe him, what weight does that hold about being faithful? Initially when we discussed all of this, he explained that he saw this as "separate" from me. Scary.

He immediately "deleted" her from his life. She is gone from his phone and facebook. He said that he was ashamed and couldn't bear to re-read it, but ultimately I believe he didn't want to give me the option of reading it again. He knows that if he ever speaks to her again, even just to tell her that he is not interested, than I will leave. We have agreed that if she contacts him that he will show me and we will delete it together. I am certain that he will never speak to her again, but not so certain he will never do this with some one else.

His words: "It was unacceptable in every way. It was not just talking it was cheating and I took every piece of trust from you. I will never do anything that I wouldn't do if you were stood right beside me. I vow to be honest in every way. I'm so very sorry for being this disgusting, horrible person. I have changed and I will never be that again. Not just because you found out but for me, I can't be that ever again."

My thoughts - when some one says "I've changed" I feel very skeptical.

[nottheprincesspeach]

I would feel skeptical too. Also when someone starts doing so much so soon after a mistake, even if they don't think they are making up for something, there basic human instincts are to fix it anyway. Either way I would feel like that's too much commitment too soon after something like this. It doesn't seem like you feel the same way, so you can't be immediately back on the same track especially with how good-bad your relationship has been. It is good he recognizes his mistakes, and understandable that you don't trust him. It is a hard situation I wouldn't push on anyone. Have you had a chance to go to counselling yet?

[ethelynn]

I am skeptical about it too, but then again.. some people do these kind of things and see them as harmless, like the other person won't know. If they do find out, that pain and distrust on the face of someone you love very much can put things into perspective. I don't know if this is the case though. At least, he has to earn back your trust somehow. This is why I have zero-tolerance to cheating, I'd get paranoid and wouldn't really believe anything the other person says anymore. If someone who says he loves me, can go behind my back and do something like that, while we're being happy.. I'd be always suspicious. In your case, he really might have seen the light, but if he was already getting all that from you.. what was he missing in your relationship that he did it? was it just for his own fun and if it was as porn, why not just watch something rather than talking to another woman? Maybe there is the answer to your question about if this is who he really is or not.

[FoxFight]

I think he feels an urgency to try and "fix it" because I am so uncomfortable being here - my bags are still packed and I haven't committed to staying to work this out yet. He knows that if I get on a plane and go home, then the door will be closed forever. But I agree that it is very off-putting the way that he is trying to smooth things over so quickly and look towards the future rather than deal with the pain that is happening right now

Our counseling is tomorrow afternoon and he's very aware that in order for us to get any sound advice, he's going to have to be honest and feel uncomfortable saying everything aloud and letting the things he's done sink in.

Ethelynn, these are the questions that I cannot resolve and to which he has no answers. Why do this when we were happy? Why not just watch porn or read erotic stories? Why choose a living, breathing human who has feelings for you? Since he can't answer that, it puts me on edge. He knew at the time it was wrong and yet he still did it. He did it because he thought that he would never see her again, and maybe therefore it was not "reality" (his ridiculous excuse, not mine). It is a very unattractive quality that I'm not sure you can just rid yourself of once and for all. For me, I know that I would never even allow a conversation to take place with a man that I knew was interested in me and I had no real desire to build a friendship with. Maybe it started out that he was lonely and just wanted to chat with an old friend, but at some point the conversation tipped and he made the choice to pursue it in that form.

[Lovebee]

I've been following this thread although I haven't commented on it before. FoxFight, your situation strikes so many chords with me, and I am so sorry that you have to go through it. It has been helpful for me to read about your thoughts and feelings, and to see the advice other people have offered (if that is any consolation - I am sure it is not).

Uncertainty is one of the most awful feelings, and it is no wonder that you have so many unanswered questions.

I admire you greatly for confronting him about his actions, and that you are both taking steps towards addressing what has happened. I really hope that you can reach some kind of resolution.

[FoxFight]

Hello Lovebee, I'm glad this thread could help you in some way. Having the ability to talk this out with other people in LDR who have faced many challenges has been of great assistance to me, but you're right, it doesn't offer much comfort at the heart of it all.

There are moments where we can sit down and discuss this rationally and chalk a lot of things out and there are others that the hurt goes too deep and the pain is too raw for me to handle it in a productive way. He knows that for us to have a chance, he has to accept that he has inflicted this pain on the person he finds most precious. He has stopped trying to move past this and instead is accepting that he needs to spend the time feeling guilty, ashamed, and remorseful, and I need to take as much time as necessary to feel the full extent of the betrayal and the depths of the hurt before we can move forward in a positive way. Obviously this is not how anyone in a LDR hopes to spend their CD time together, but here we are.

We have found that the only way we have been able to deal with this so far is complete, unreserved honestly and openness. This often means that he has to tell me details about the "affair" (not sure what else to call it) that he knows will hurt me or make me angrier, or answer my sometimes outlandish questions and accusations since I am feeling so insecure and uncertain right now. Sometimes that is still not enough.

Sadly because his coursework is so demanding, I fear that we do not have the time to really reconcile properly. I'm lucky if I get an hour or two(!) of his time during the day (keep in mind that we live together), which for me right now just isn't enough. I feel that I am giving a lot by being here and staying; waiting around for him each day and allowing all of these questions and negative feelings to fester inside of me. Despite all of the answers he has given me honestly, it all boils down to this: he chose to do this while we were very much in love and happy. There is nothing reassuring that can ease that. But for the time being, we are trying. It's all still fresh, so I hope that in a week or two I can settle on a decision to stay and commit to making this work, or go home and end the relationship.

Anyways, it sounds like you may be going through something similar, or have in the past? If you would like to chat more about it, feel free to PM me.

[piratemama]

I'm sorry FoxFight that you are having to go through this. It sounds like you are a mature person trying to work through this painful time as best you can. I hope you can find the right way in your heart. I truly hope the best for you, as you don't deserve all this hurt. Good luck.