What does marriage mean to you?

[Hololz]

For me, most of the importance of a marriage isn't to the couple involved necessarily. It's more like an official recognition and commitment that everybody else has to recognize. Visitation in hospitals and prisons, debt repayment, taxation issues, and so many other legal and monetary benefits are granted to married couples because it's "official" on the eyes of society. In etiquette, a couple is only really required to be recognized if they are married. And in my own family at least, anybody who I'm dating is just a family friend, but once I marry them they would be accepted as family. If/when I get married, I'd be doing it for the legal, societal, and familial benefits, not because I think it would do too much for my relationship as far was we're concerned.

This.

However, I don't want children until I'm married. This isnt for any religious or societal reasons. It's because the man I marry will have made a commitment to me, to spend his life with me, have children with me and help me bring up those children. Whilst there is nothing wrong with having children outside of a marriage, I personally take a more traditional view of how I would like my family life to be in the future.

[ST25]

I guess that would be a nuptial then

And I agree with the last part as well. I think every longer relationship requires compromises and work at times. Getting married doesn't makeyour relationship harder or easier. Maybe because I've never been married, but 20 years of relationship without marriage vs 20 years of marriage, I don't see how one would be harder than the other?


I also think that it's unfair to say that people get divorced because they're not trying hard enough. That is really unfair judgement. Are you in their relationship? Do you know how hard they tried? Does anyone know apart from them? How much trying and fixing is 'enough'?
I like to think that people take a commitment such as marriage seriously, if only because of the legal implications and how mind-blowingly expensive divorces are. If they end up divorcing anyway, they must have their reasons and it's really not up to me or anyone else to judge them. Sometimes things don't work out, not for lack of trying.

If you're divorcing for a serious issue such as, oh I don't know, emotional, mental and sexual abuse as examples, then that can be one of the legit reasons that you can divorce.

If it's for shallow reasons such as expecting a fairy tale, happily ever after romance - and not getting it however, then marriage is not for you. Straight to the point. That's not unfair, that's life. Even some of the marriages with the most difficulties turn out to be the most enduring ones because they tend to work it out despite the hardships and differences. That's commitment. Sometimes it's worth it to ask yourself 'Do I really see myself being with this person, even without being in a marriage, for many more years to come? With their faults and fuck-ups and flaws?'

[lademoiselle]

Wow everyone, this is amazing feedback. I love how much detail you've put into your replies; it's really interesting to see how points of view differ, and hear which factors have shaped those very opinions!

Marriage for me is a public declaration of your intent to journey through (what will ideally be) the rest of your life with a particular person by your side, a person you've chosen on the grounds of compatibility, friendship, but most of all, love. I think the traditional wedding vows are a simple but accurate summary of what matters most in a marriage - "...to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish..." You're making a promise to your partner to not give up on the two of you even when times get tough. However, I believe the foundations of that union should be laid long before you say "I do"! If you don't have that sense of dedication beforehand, signing a piece of paper isn't going to fix everything as if by magic. I see getting married as putting an official stamp on a bond, a profound commitment which has been established between a couple; you already know it in your hearts, but now it's time to let the rest of the world know too

[Dziubka]

My point -and I don't know how that's so hard to understand- was how do you tell apart the shallow reasons from the legit ones? Where's the line between shallow and legit? And WHY do you judge other people's reasons to get divorced? (Not to mention: Why do you even care?)
How do you know someone got divorced for what you assume are shallow reasons?

How is everyday life with that person being totally opposite to what you had imagined (ie expecting a fairy tale and not getting it) shallow? Do you seriously know people that happened to? Isn't fighting a lot emotional abuse as well?
How much working out difficulties is enough? Yes, you might want to be with that person with all their fuck ups and flaws at this point, but none of us can see the future. There's no way of knowing what happens down the line. People change, their expectations, priorities and desires change.

[Spriteling]

For me, marriage is important because it will allow me to pledge my love and dedication to my SO in front of everyone who is important to me. Marriage is also, to me, a symbol that even when times are rough in our relationship, that I'm going to stick around and try to work things out, and not run away when the going gets tough. It means I'm going to be there for my SO through thick and thin. It's not that I wouldn't be if we weren't married, but more that the act of marriage makes that declaration public, and those promises formal.

Since I'm gay, in most places I can't get married in the legal sense. However, we will still have a ceremony and everything, and it will be just as real to us as if it was legal.

[ST25]

My point -and I don't know how that's so hard to understand- was how do you tell apart the shallow reasons from the legit ones? Where's the line between shallow and legit? And WHY do you judge other people's reasons to get divorced? (Not to mention: Why do you even care?)
How do you know someone got divorced for what you assume are shallow reasons?

How is everyday life with that person being totally opposite to what you had imagined (ie expecting a fairy tale and not getting it) shallow? Do you seriously know people that happened to? Isn't fighting a lot emotional abuse as well?
How much working out difficulties is enough? Yes, you might want to be with that person with all their fuck ups and flaws at this point, but none of us can see the future. There's no way of knowing what happens down the line. People change, their expectations, priorities and desires change.

I said if you are EXPECTING a marriage to be happily ever after every single day with that person, that's shallow and foolish.

Yeah, I knew people that seriously thought of that. And no, I can't tell the future. But when you realize that a lot of stupid, young people just up and jump into a marriage today like it's no big deal - then be all aggravated and disappointed when a part of the relationship becomes rocky - that's something that can irk the hell out of me. If you can end things amicably, that's fine. However people can tend to act like immature brats when it comes to dividing assets in a divorce.

All I can say is: think about your future and what it will be like to spend the rest of your life with someone you say that you LOVE, before even considering the idea of marriage. It's expensive, it can be emotionally draining, but you have to ask yourself: will it be worth it AND the person I will be with in the long run.

With that, I am done in this thread. I am getting too worked up about this situation so I'm going to stop before I blow a gasket.

[Moon]

To the people judging others reasons for divorce: Think what you like, but you will NEVER understand what it's really like to be married until you've done so. It's extremely easy to judge people as shallow, especially when you only assume what it is about and what you'd do in the same situation. Nobody walks into a marriage expecting to divorce, but regardless of what you think you know, shit happens. It's very easier to have a holier-than-thou attitude at a distance my friends, but once you've actually lived it, your opinion will change. There are more extenuating circumstances than you can imagine, and you may just find yourself facing an impossible situation yourself someday, no matter how hard you try.

[ThePiedPiper]

Yeah, I knew people that seriously thought of that. And no, I can't tell the future. But when you realize that a lot of stupid, young people just up and jump into a marriage today like it's no big deal - then be all aggravated and disappointed when a part of the relationship becomes rocky - that's something that can irk the hell out of me. If you can end things amicably, that's fine. However people can tend to act like immature brats when it comes to dividing assets in a divorce.

This was actually what I struggled with in my own relationship. We weren't married, but his mother had passed away. I was his partner. Of course I was going to support him. I rationalised his behaviour and treatment with that he was angry. When he called me a "stupid bitch" because I needed his help not SHing (granted I did not go about asking for that help in the best of ways) or when he said "I hate you" because I had to go to class and he didn't want me to go, I said, "he's angry. It's only been x-number of months." That angry phase lasted months, to the point that even when it stopped, I was ringing with anxiety and alarm every time his tone changed, second guessing everything I said. Still, I said we'd get through it. Then I went on my trip. Opened my eyes to a lot. All of a sudden I was there, we were supposed to be happy, and his negativity and pessimism were so incredibly overwhelming. We argued consistently for a month, things were very distant for about half of the second month, and then they were good. For two weeks of a two month trip, things were good. I went home, he started school and music classes and I thought, "hey, this is it! He's starting to turn his life around!" From September to November, I waited for something to change, for things to get better, for him to accept responsibility, for him to communicate with me as opposed to shutting me down. I communicated my needs to him for over a month. I finally decided to end it, and had we been married, it would have been reason to call for a divorce, especially since he showed some signs of Gottman's four horsemen of the apocalypse, which resonated with me when I learned about them, but I denied it, said it'd get better. He admitted to those behaviours and actions being a choice, not a result of his mother, and that sealed everything. I don't want to be with someone who chooses to treat anyone that way. That's not leaving due to abuse, but it's leaving because he stopped working at it.

And you don't always have people leaping into marriage and expecting it to be happy and wonderful. My mother didn't. She wanted children, yes, and regrets dropping out of her PhD program to get her MA instead so she could get married and start a family, but she and my father dated for a while before getting married and he was already settled in work and she was getting there. She knew marriage was going to take work and put effort into it, she did. 19 years later, they got divorced. It wasn't that she didn't work at it. I saw my mother up through the age of 14 and all the effort she did put into the relationship, and she didn't jump into it naively. Rather, she had grown up with her parents' horrid, shitty marriage being her only example and so got herself into the same conundrum. In her case, there was extreme abuse and neglect. In mine, there was only minor, borderline abusive behaviour and neglect of me and our relationship as a whole. The thing is, neither one is a better reason for ending the relationship. In the end, what happened was they simply stopped working, and no amount of fight could ever bring it back once it has reached that point. In my opinion, it's as ignorant to assume fight and work can rekindle a shattered relationship as it is to assume that marriage is going to be happy every single day for forever and always. It takes one person to break a relationship and two to fix it. Sometimes there's a reason, sometimes there isn't, and sometimes life just happens. But I put blood, sweat, and tears into my relationship with my SO as my mother did into her marriage with my father, and in the end, work is only part of the equation for what makes a marriage successful. There is no one key component to marriage, though Gottman has identified plenty of good ones and a strong foundation of friendship being a very reliable one, but in the end, you don't have the answer to marriage simply because you decide you're going to push through the rocky times and work at making something successful. That's not the magic answer.

[Dezface]

To the people judging others reasons for divorce: Think what you like, but you will NEVER understand what it's really like to be married until you've done so. It's extremely easy to judge people as shallow, especially when you only assume what it is about and what you'd do in the same situation. Nobody walks into a marriage expecting to divorce, but regardless of what you think you know, shit happens. It's very easier to have a holier-than-thou attitude at a distance my friends, but once you've actually lived it, your opinion will change. There are more extenuating circumstances than you can imagine, and you may just find yourself facing an impossible situation yourself someday, no matter how hard you try.

Exactly. Thank you Moon. I'm trying not to blow up on here because this thread is stirring a lot of emotions for me. Marriage is so very complicated and you can say "work at it" all day long but sometimes that's not enough. I worked at it for YEARS but you know what, no amount of work can make someone fall back in love with you. Deciding to divorce was the hardest thing I've ever done and for people to imply that these decisions are takien lightly and that I didn't "try" hard enough... I'm sorry, you don't know me or how much I tried. Or cried. Or anything else for that matter. And if you think that just because you "try" and "work" at it means it's guaranteed to be forever, I think you're in for a harsh wake up call.

[Zephii]

I don't think I can say it half as well as Malaga and Dziubka, but they've pretty much said what I think.

To me, marriage is a contract, which is why I was very careful choosing what went into my vows - they were the verbal, public outline of that contract. But more than just a legal contract, it's a contract with whatever God(s) you believe in. Being Wiccan, I chose a handfasting, the point of which is to tie the souls of the people involved together so that if one of us dies well before the other, that soul will wait, and we'll find each other again. Which, if you don't believe in magic is a hilariously stupid romantic sentiment - but if you do.. well... if I'm wrong about this guy too bad because he's going to find me in every life I have after this one and potentially make me miserable! So obviously I was very sure of what I was doing before I did it... and there was no way on God's green earth I'd have done it if we hadn't lived together and gone through a small corner of hell together first.

Lademoiselle asked in the OP about marriage and it's relationship to family. Is it still a corner stone of family? I don't know. I know Obi believes it is, and I do see a certain amount of social conformity in it. He refused outright to have brats with me unless I married him. But, there are some arrogant fucks in the world (looking at you Australian government!) who think they have the right to define what a family is - and therefore wont LET marriage be the cornerstone of a family, because not all families can attain it.
However, I think it plays a big role in joining existing families, not just establishing new ones. I was very determined that our families should meet each other before we married - even though they may never see each other again except at a funeral - because I expect the family I married into to treat anyone of my blood the way they would treat me... and I expect the same from my family, that they'd take in any of Obi's if there ever was a need.
(I'm very big on family lol)

Marriage is taking some random, and making them family - extending to them everything that you would to your family, and to me that's a big deal. It's a promise to give that person unconditional love, rather than just regular love (Now I know lots of people like to say they love their SOs unconditionally but I call bullshit on that. Unconditionally means "without condition" - thus, he starts beating you, or he rapes your cat, gambles your granny's heirloom rings, drowns your first born in a bucket, you vow to still love them. FOR BETTER OR WORSE.)
To me, when I took that vow, what I really said was "No matter what you do to me, no matter how much I hate your country, or if you cheat on me, or harm me, if you're barren, if you decide to change your gender, if you're secretly an axe murderer... I will still love you and I will stay with you. But I trust you enough that you will return this vow and take your vow to look after me seriously and none of this horrible shit has to happen"

For me, marriage is a three-fold promise - A promise to each other, A promise to the community/government/the law, and a promise to the Gods.

[Sora1101]

Not to get into the debate on the thread I'm just gonna post the OP's question.

To me marriage is the green light to start trying to have a family, all that commitment and vows and stuff? I already expect that from a normal relationship marriage doesn't change that. The actual wedding to me symbolizes bringing our two halves together to create one family. To me I'd never want to have children outside of marriage, I want my family to all have the same last name, I want us to grow together in the same house and as selfish and petty as it sounds I want society to recognize us as a family, people act so differently towards those they know are married and those who are just dating even if it's been the same amount of time.

[rubydissolution]

believe that it is beneficial for children to have strong, committed mother and father figures. Yes, divorce rates are climbing, but I think thats due to more couples living together and having sex before marriage (statistics are showing this). I prefer to stay traditional.

I won't start a debate. But I will make an accusation.

That's ignorant.

I agree that the first quote is ignorant. Couples living together and having sex before marriage is not the reason so many couples are getting divorced. That is the stuff religion forces down your throat to make you wait until marriage to do those things. The reason the divorce rate is so high is because people get married too soon, they do not communicate, divorce is an easy out, infidelity....etc. We do not live in the generation of our grandparents where once you were married that was it. There has been a pic going around on facebook that says something along the lines of "when I was young, if something was broken we fixed it" with a picture of an elderly couple. THAT is why the divorce rate is so high not because of modern ideals that people want to live together and have sex before marriage...psht.

As for me, I think marriage is the next step in the relationship. Showing your commitment before your friends and family and god. It says Yea i'm with this person forever, I will love them and only them forever. It is a good stepping stone for children, and sets a good stable example for them. However! Children are raised just fine in single family households, so I do not believe that a two parent household is needed for healthy kids. I personally only want to get married once, I don't want to play the divorce card. I'd rather work on my marriage through therapy and such then become part of the divorce statistic.

[faith_patience_believe]

I think thats due to more couples living together and having sex before marriage (statistics are showing this)

I agree with most of your post, but I don't see how this makes any sense at all. What is the difference between living together before you go through with the ceremony and contract and living together after words, other than morally or religiously? The only way that I can see that this would effect anything is that the marriage ends earlier than it would have other wise because they have already spent that time together, but it would have ended regardless.. just a few years later than it did. If a couple is happy together, has everything sorted out financially/emotionally/etc, and is committed to their relationship it's not going to matter how long they did or didn't live together before marrying each other.

The difference between living together before and once you are married is that sometimes those who live together before make the decision too soon and then end up staying together and getting married before they had a chance to decide if it was right. Also, I agree that if they have "everything sorted out financially/emotionally/etc, and is committed to their relationship" then they could make living together work. But I feel that a lot of couples rush into it too soon and then get married, thus getting a divorce when things don't work out.

What you said makes sense, I just view it a little differently.

I agree that the first quote is ignorant. Couples living together and having sex before marriage is not the reason so many couples are getting divorced. That is the stuff religion forces down your throat to make you wait until marriage to do those things. The reason the divorce rate is so high is because people get married too soon, they do not communicate, divorce is an easy out, infidelity....etc. We do not live in the generation of our grandparents where once you were married that was it. There has been a pic going around on facebook that says something along the lines of "when I was young, if something was broken we fixed it" with a picture of an elderly couple. THAT is why the divorce rate is so high not because of modern ideals that people want to live together and have sex before marriage...psht.

First off, I was under the impression that this was a safe place to post our personal opinions. I don't think its fair to tell me my opinions are "ignorant." That makes this place feel less safe. I respect your opinions. I'd hope you'd respect mine.

I don't believe religion is shoving the idea of waiting for sex down anyone's throat. At least not the religion I practice. The reason I'm waiting is not only because of my religious beliefs, its also because I want to have that kind of intimate relationship with only one man.

I agree completely with the contributing factors you mentioned about divorce.

We may not live in the same generation as our grandparents, but I am trying to keep those ideals alive.

I never said having sex and living together was the ONLY reason divorce rates were rising, I just said that in my opinion, its a contributing factor.
Sorry I caused a debate. I just gave my opinion. And my SO agrees, and thats important.

[rubydissolution]

The difference between living together before and once you are married is that sometimes those who live together before make the decision too soon and then end up staying together and getting married before they had a chance to decide if it was right. Also, I agree that if they have "everything sorted out financially/emotionally/etc, and is committed to their relationship" then they could make living together work. But I feel that a lot of couples rush into it too soon and then get married, thus getting a divorce when things don't work out.

What you said makes sense, I just view it a little differently.



First off, I was under the impression that this was a safe place to post our personal opinions. I don't think its fair to tell me my opinions are "ignorant." That makes this place feel less safe. I respect your opinions. I'd hope you'd respect mine.

I don't believe religion is shoving the idea of waiting for sex down anyone's throat. At least not the religion I practice. The reason I'm waiting is not only because of my religious beliefs, its also because I want to have that kind of intimate relationship with only one man.

I agree completely with the contributing factors you mentioned about divorce.

We may not live in the same generation as our grandparents, but I am trying to keep those ideals alive.

I never said having sex and living together was the ONLY reason divorce rates were rising, I just said that in my opinion, its a contributing factor.
Sorry I caused a debate. I just gave my opinion. And my SO agrees, and thats important.

I honestly don't have any issues with what you believe. I respect those people who wait until marriage to have sex and live together. One of my best friends is like that. But we also agree to disagree about it. So that is what I'm choosing to do here. I don't think having sex before marriage is wrong and I don't think living together before marriage is wrong. If anything it tests your compatibility more before you make that commitment.

I grew up in a Christian house, went to church every single Wed and Sunday...I know what the church believes. Some churches, and not all, do shove those ideal down your throat. Sex before marriage is a sin, blah blah. Some not so much. But I do agree that divorce is a sin, in most cases. Exceptions are given to those people in domestic violence and infidelity situations (which btw is mentioned in the bible as the only acceptable reason for divorce. my religious friend pointed that out when we had a debate lol). Which is the reason, like i said, I only want to get married once. I want it to be forever not just a little while.

[Softy]

I will not add to the debate and will only answer the OP : )

To me marriage is a life time commitment.
It's like saying out loud to the family, friends and people you care about that: 'Hey this is my man/woman I've decided to spend my life with'.
It's a promise to be there for each other no matter what, to cherish and love until death tears us appart.

As corny as it may sound, that's what I believe.
I have been waiting a long time to get married because I wanted to find 'the right one'.
I have found him, now we need to close the distance and then... well see : )

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